TPO tree fell in the storm yesterday

[Chris at eden]

7 minutes ago, Johnelle said:

Many thanks for your help. Much appreciated. The reason we want to proceed with the appeal is that we would like to have the TPO removed - as we don’t believe the TO can consider this w/o us applying. As the TPO still exists and will continue we would have a new tree with a TPO on it! Also, there is no legal reason why our appeal should die with the tree and that, owing to the TPO we should be compelled to plant another tree, which will automatically  have a TPO attached!

Hi 

 

A couple of points to clarify for you:  

 

1)  You are not applying to have the TPO revoked, that isn't a function of the planning inspectorate (PINS).  You are applying to fell the tree, there is a difference.  The PINS will write to the LPA and ask the TO for all the documents as they were submitted and give them a questionnaire to fill out.  One of the questions will be if the TO would like the inspector to apply any conditions in the event that they support the appeal.  If the TO says yes, tree replacement, the inspector will probably include a replacement condition unless they think its inappropriate.  Even if the TO doesn't ask for it the inspector may apply one anyway if they feel its appropriate.  I have done dozens of these questionnaires, they always ask.      

2)  One of the other things the letter from the PINS will say is that if you and the LPA can resolve the issue before they attend, you should let them know so they can cancel the visit.  You are applying to fell the tree, the tree has now been felled by the wind.  I don't think the inspector will be particularly impressed of the rock up and the tree has already gone.  

 

Cheers 

 

Chris

 

[Johnelle]

Thanks Chris

Is there a possibility we could have a chat with you? 

[Chris at eden]

Yes, no problem.  I can't do this evening though, I've just been hit with a last minute deadline for a planning app so will be doing the late shift!!!  

 

Feel free to give me a call tomorrow though, happy to discuss.  I think I am too far away to represent you though and I am not really taking on new clients at the moment as work has gone a bit mad.  Just so you know.  If I don't answer just leave a message and I will call back.  Number is on the below link t website.   

 

Regards 

 

Chris   

[Johnelle]

Great, many thanks

Will be in touch

[Jon Heuch]

On 20/02/2022 at 18:25, Johnelle said:

Still not heard of anyone who has had a tree fall that had a TPO AND in the appeals process.

Our District Councillor has suggested we will have to apply to ‘work’ on the TPO tree (again) to get the TPO removed - otherwise it remains on the plot

Anyone experienced this?

Johnelle

I have one on my computer at work - I can try to dig it out, but the official correspondence won't record what happened); the inspector had visited but had  yet to submit their decision. The tree fell. The Planning Inspectorate decided there was no need to issue a decision any longer.....

Your tree has fallen; it's highly likely that it is dead if the root plate has detached from the soil. Work to a dead tree is an exception so you can remove it at your convenience with no reference to the council although you may be obliged to tell them in writing (I need to check the Regs again!). You can't be prosecuted (successfuly) for the removal of a dead tree but there is a most obscure route for prosecuting for not telling them in writing (it really is a tongue twister of legislation that 99% of lawyers would fail; I've never seen it done).

If the council want to argue that the tree is still alive and for some perverse reason think that you are obliged to keep the tree lying across your garden unless they give you permission (after the appropriate 8 weeks of deliberations) I would have something to say to your District Councillor first (an appeal to common sense) and then the tree officer (a request for their interpretation of the law!). It might start politely, but might deteriorate quite quickly.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

21 minutes ago, Jon Heuch said:

Your tree has fallen; it's highly likely that it is dead if the root plate has detached from the soil. Work to a dead tree is an exception so you can remove it at your convenience with no reference to the council although you may be obliged to tell them in writing (I need to check the Regs again!).

Genuinely interested in the view here.

Mindful it was reported as being a Poplar, I’m not so sure it would be safe (even with all / significant about of root plate lifted) to declare the tree dead simply on the basis that it has fallen over. 
 

Chris made the point earlier about (potential) significant denudation of ‘amenity’ (if amenity is inexorably tied to an upright tree?) and that may be an advantageous element of how the LA approach administering the existing TPO. 
 

I’m pretty sure I’d be reluctant (subject to assessing on site) to declare the tree dead simply on the basis it is horizontal. 

[Paul in the woods]

Of no help to the OP, but is anyone else thinking of the Dead Parrot sketch? No, no, the trees resting...

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

52 minutes ago, Paul in the woods said:

Of no help to the OP, but is anyone else thinking of the Dead Parrot sketch? No, no, the trees resting...

Well, potentially, it is (of a fashion) resting.
 

At least so far as the naked eye / casual observer might discern.
 

But then the naked eye / casual observer wouldn’t be able to discern the internal systems which are coming to terms with the drastically changed circumstances and setting in train the adaptation and survival strategies the results of which would not be visible (Poplar) for several months (possibly). 
 

I felled (Summer) ringed, stacked and (almost finished) converting a Poplar to kindling - there are 8” rings in the yard with regrowth!  Granted, that regrow on the rings is completely unsustainable but we’re not talking 8” rings, we’re talking a tree in the horizontal which may / may not have all / part of the stem in ground contact and may / may not still have some root attachment / function. 
 

Can we call it a dead parrot?

 

I think not, with what we have to go on so far. So if it’s not dead the exemption cannot apply. 
 

Granted it’s all getting a bit beyond what one might ‘hope for’ from a reasonable approach to TPO administration and likely beyond what the op can bear - but we also know reasonable comes in many different shapes and sizes...

 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by kevinjohnsonmbe
To add a pic - different tree obv’s but just the first off the Google search

[Khriss]

3 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Well, potentially, it is (of a fashion) resting.
 

At least so far as the naked eye / casual observer might discern.
 

But then the naked eye / casual observer wouldn’t be able to discern the internal systems which are coming to terms with the drastically changed circumstances and setting in train the adaptation and survival strategies the results of which would not be visible (Poplar) for several months (possibly). 
 

I felled (Summer) ringed, stacked and (almost finished) converting a Poplar to kindling - there are 8” rings in the yard with regrowth!  Granted, that regrow on the rings is completely unsustainable but we’re not talking 8” rings, we’re talking a tree in the horizontal which may / may not have all / part of the stem in ground contact and may / may not still have some root attachment / function. 
 

Can we call it a dead parrot?

 

I think not, with what we have to go on so far. So if it’s not dead the exemption cannot apply. 
 

Granted it’s all getting a bit beyond what one might ‘hope for’ from a reasonable approach to TPO administration and likely beyond what the op can bear - but we also know reasonable comes in many different shapes and sizes...

 

 

Thats a very commonly used pic Kev.... Maybe that tree should have a TPO on it 😋 K

[Stubby]

4 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Well, potentially, it is (of a fashion) resting.
 

At least so far as the naked eye / casual observer might discern.
 

But then the naked eye / casual observer wouldn’t be able to discern the internal systems which are coming to terms with the drastically changed circumstances and setting in train the adaptation and survival strategies the results of which would not be visible (Poplar) for several months (possibly). 
 

I felled (Summer) ringed, stacked and (almost finished) converting a Poplar to kindling - there are 8” rings in the yard with regrowth!  Granted, that regrow on the rings is completely unsustainable but we’re not talking 8” rings, we’re talking a tree in the horizontal which may / may not have all / part of the stem in ground contact and may / may not still have some root attachment / function. 
 

Can we call it a dead parrot?

 

I think not, with what we have to go on so far. So if it’s not dead the exemption cannot apply. 
 

Granted it’s all getting a bit beyond what one might ‘hope for’ from a reasonable approach to TPO administration and likely beyond what the op can bear - but we also know reasonable comes in many different shapes and sizes...

 

 

Its not dead Kev . Its pining for the fjords .