Getting rid of ivy!!

[Paul in the woods]

16 hours ago, CambridgeJC said:

Yes. Misread or rather I was not clear. Sorry. If ivy is allowed to go rampant then like any other invasive species it can cause major disruption to the stability of its local ecology. Not environment. That’s what I am concerned about. Thanks 

As has been said, the ivy you're referring to is unlikely to be an invasive species, i.e. something introduced to this country that becomes a pest (such as Japanese knotweed). The ivy in you photos looks like common Hedera helix ssp. helix. (Ref: https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/plants/wild-flowers/ivy/)

 

The first thing that occurred to me with your two recent photos was how little ivy there was on the other trees. I own a couple of pieces of woodland and it has far more ivy in it. I am also in a fairly windy area so each year several mature trees blow over, some have no or little ivy on them, some are covered. I could not conclude ivy is or isn't a problem.

 

I'm also a bee keeper and ivy is very important to my bees as it produces a late crop of nectar which enables them to over winter without me having to feed them. It's perhaps one of the only crops produced by the woodland round here.

 

I can understand people wanting to clear it to inspect trees or if you're growing timber trees etc. Which brings me to my main point in that the ivy will be down to whoever is managing the trees. I'd be more than a little annoyed if anyone started hacking back the ivy on my trees. Perhaps you should raise you concerns with the owner of the trees you're worried about?

 

As few more random observations. With regard to the differing shapes of the leaves. I know in my woodland the deer don't browse off the lower leaves. But when ivy falls from higher up the leaves are often eaten by the deer so I would assume they are less bitter/poisonous.

 

There are also several papers written about the possible effects of climate change on ivy growth. This would seem to be what you are after, a quick google should show them up.

[Guest Gimlet]

We used to keep goats when I was a kid and they would eat any amount of ivy. They would stand on their hind legs to reach the highest leaves they could. Perhaps the upper foliage that gets more sun is sweeter. Certainly didn't do them any harm but it made the milk taste very strong. Deer and goats have a very similar constitution.

[openspaceman]

44 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

We used to keep goats when I was a kid and they would eat any amount of ivy. They would stand on their hind legs to reach the highest leaves they could. Perhaps the upper foliage that gets more sun is sweeter. Certainly didn't do them any harm but it made the milk taste very strong. Deer and goats have a very similar constitution.

In the 70s we were felling loads of post pole stage elms that had been standing dead and covered in ivy on the dairy farm where I helped out. We'd drop them into the field and the cattle would eat off the ivy.

 

The Iain the old farmer said when a cow was ill and off her food ivy was the "last food she would eat" Which I misunderstood as it would kill her when he meant it was the food she would eat when she would eat nothing else.

[CambridgeJC]

54 minutes ago, Paul in the woods said:

As has been said, the ivy you're referring to is unlikely to be an invasive species, i.e. something introduced to this country that becomes a pest (such as Japanese knotweed). The ivy in you photos looks like common Hedera helix ssp. helix. (Ref: https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/plants/wild-flowers/ivy/)

 

The first thing that occurred to me with your two recent photos was how little ivy there was on the other trees. I own a couple of pieces of woodland and it has far more ivy in it. I am also in a fairly windy area so each year several mature trees blow over, some have no or little ivy on them, some are covered. I could not conclude ivy is or isn't a problem.

 

I'm also a bee keeper and ivy is very important to my bees as it produces a late crop of nectar which enables them to over winter without me having to feed them. It's perhaps one of the only crops produced by the woodland round here.

 

I can understand people wanting to clear it to inspect trees or if you're growing timber trees etc. Which brings me to my main point in that the ivy will be down to whoever is managing the trees. I'd be more than a little annoyed if anyone started hacking back the ivy on my trees. Perhaps you should raise you concerns with the owner of the trees you're worried about?

 

As few more random observations. With regard to the differing shapes of the leaves. I know in my woodland the deer don't browse off the lower leaves. But when ivy falls from higher up the leaves are often eaten by the deer so I would assume they are less bitter/poisonous.

 

There are also several papers written about the possible effects of climate change on ivy growth. This would seem to be what you are after, a quick google should show them up.

I’ve done loads of google on this subject and a pattern emerges between emotive comments and hard factual objective material. Time has come for a mature objective discussion. Arborists and woodlands management will view it from a professional practical perspective but it will be based on personal day to day activities and this means contracted operations. I am really more concerned withe the wider picture and especially roadside and public paths and areas where there is a clear neglect of control over the very clear expansion of ivy encroachment to new zones and possibly much higher into the unmanaged canopy. 
I am hoping to define this level of encroachment from the experience of arborists and others who have a mature and objective attitude towards discussion. Thanks for your contribution. JC

Here image of smothered woodlands locally 

[Paul in the woods]

25 minutes ago, CambridgeJC said:

I’ve done loads of google on this subject and a pattern emerges between emotive comments and hard factual objective material. Time has come for a mature objective discussion. Arborists and woodlands management will view it from a professional practical perspective but it will be based on personal day to day activities and this means contracted operations. I am really more concerned withe the wider picture and especially roadside and public paths and areas where there is a clear neglect of control over the very clear expansion of ivy encroachment to new zones and possibly much higher into the unmanaged canopy.

 

I don't have any contractual obligations with my woodlands, I manage them for a bit of firewood and nature's benefit mostly. There are all sorts of competing goals though. For me there are all sorts of risks to the trees, from Hymenoscyphus fraxineus, invasive plants etc to pests such as grey squirrels and deer. Ivy isn't really much of a concern and, if anything, probably prevents some deer damage.

 

As you're after hard facts, do you have any to back up your thoughts? Any records going back 10, 20 or more years of that small spinney? Talking of which, the tall trees in the middle of the photo that look a bit like beech, I note one has lost it's top but there doesn't appear to be much ivy growing up it. I expect there's more serious problems exposure, disease and over spray from the farm.

[CambridgeJC]

On 08/02/2022 at 12:23, Paul in the woods said:

I don't have any contractual obligations with my woodlands, I manage them for a bit of firewood and nature's benefit mostly. There are all sorts of competing goals though. For me there are all sorts of risks to the trees, from Hymenoscyphus fraxineus, invasive plants etc to pests such as grey squirrels and deer. Ivy isn't really much of a concern and, if anything, probably prevents some deer damage.

 

As you're after hard facts, do you have any to back up your thoughts? Any records going back 10, 20 or more years of that small spinney? Talking of which, the tall trees in the middle of the photo that look a bit like beech, I note one has lost it's top but there doesn't appear to be much ivy growing up it. I expect there's more serious problems exposure, disease and over spray from the farm.

Hi Paul. Great input thanks. I am having some difficulty differentiating fact from fiction or rather fact from supposition. Even woodlands trust replied with cut and paste from a post on this site Which itself referred to an original article published in 2000 by a commercial organisation involved in advising on tree husbandry. The problem is that as climate adjusts and husbandry methods change it can open the door to a step change in ecological response or in this case a potential opportunistic intrusive expansion of one species over its neighbours. I await a response from Forestry Commission to whether they accept this can happen. The standard definition of invasive is as a species introduced by humans from another country or domain. In the USA our native Hedera helix or English Ivy as they call it is classified as invasive for exactly the reasons I cite. Smothered ground cover and canopy. What happens there and here are driven by the plant behaviour which is the same in both countries. Opportunism. To control this requires firstly monitoring then analysis and finally a considered decision with practical advice and actions. I am at this point just collecting facts. As you suggest earlier images of that spinney would be helpful but in any case the ivy was not of course always like that by nature of the growth process. 
What part of Devon do you come from?

I am from South Devon myself. 
Please respond and keep up the dialogue. It is very productive. Thanks. JC

[Mick Dempsey]

You’re not collecting facts.

 

You're trying to create a scenario that doesn’t exist, everyone here has told you this, but you persist.

 

I expect the FC have filed your letter carefully..

[CambridgeJC]

55 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

You’re not collecting facts.

 

You're trying to create a scenario that doesn’t exist, everyone here has told you this, but you persist.

 

I expect the FC have filed your letter carefully..

Why so touchy about this? Not everyone thinks like you my friend. How much do you know about genetics and ecology? You sound like you know everything about forestry and simply don’t like someone outside the field asking a few different questions. If you can’t be constructive you should back off and let others speak. 

[Peasgood]

For a start you are trying to find anecdotal evidence that the big increase of ivy within the countryside is due to invasive species and climate change without any evidence whatsoever that there even is an increase of ivy in the first place. The only evidence is a single spinney with ivy growing in it and you have no idea if there was more or less ivy there at any time in the past. You have ignored the people who work in/with/around trees all day and every day that have said there hasn't been a change but I bet if I told you that I thought there had been an increase you would thank me for being so factual. Typical scientist picking out the evidence that points to the answer they want to find and I have known enough scientists to know this is very often the case.

[Mick Dempsey]

I’m not stopping you speaking.

I am questioning your observations. 
 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Mick Dempsey