Can I do some extra freelance work for the company I work for?

[Rich Rule]

I am not denying as a Bona Fide Subcontractor you need PL Insurance.  The guy is freelancing.  Please read the post.

[Mr. Squirrel]

6 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Well I've worked for companies before, let's call them wefixplanes. Wefixplanes was working on a commercial airliner which needed a modification done on a wing spar. Wefixplanes didn't have enough manpower to do all the work so they took on 4 freelance workers who were skilled and done the modification countless times before. One guy ****************ed up and drilled a hole in the wrong place, it caused around 500k of damage. Wefixplanes was furious because they would have to go to the customer and explain why the wing is coming off of their multi-million pound jet liner. They asked the subcontractors for their insurance details so they can work it out and they said "oh, we should be covered by your insurance" to which they said "nope, you were to have your own insurance, it was in the contract you Signed here"... The 4 lads (luckily not me) as a heft deal to pay and I think eventually worked out a repayment plan. 

 

I'm sorry, but it comes down to your insurance company and the insurance policy fine print. It doesn't matter what you call it. 

 

Bare in mind you're either an employee of a company or an external company being subcontracted. There is nothing in-between, especially with the ir35 rules now.

Sounds like their main mistake there was signing a contract stating they would provide their own insurance, but failing to do so? 

6 hours ago, Steve Bullman said:

My insurance provider told me that I didn't need insurance due to the work I was doing. However my main customers insurers told them that I did need insurance to work for them. This was wrong, my provider assured me it was wrong, and ultimately for the sake of my £300 premium and the amount of work I got from said company, I just kept it running.

 

Few months back the same company I used to sub to asked me for a recommendation on insurance. I told them to give me previous provider a phone, which they did and had a long conversation, including the issue with sub contractors insurance. They went back to their existing company with the information, who finally conceded that actually their subbies would be covered under their insurance after all.

I had exactly the same thing. I was insured for two years by a prominent provider in our industry, purely for freelance work, about the same price. When I was renewing one year I rang round for a few more quotes and the other companies all told me I didn't need insurance for what I was doing, and so they refused to insure me. 

[Rich Rule]

3 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

I have not read your post... But if working sub contract.. ie a contractor brought is. My insurance company says that I still need it.

Ask them the question again and say you would like to use a freelance guy. Then see what the answer is.

[Paddy1000111]

Just now, Rich Rule said:

I am not denying as a Bona Fide Subcontractor you need PL Insurance.  The guy is freelancing.  Please read the post.

As I keep saying, in the eyes of employment law and HMRC there is no such thing as freelancing. You are either an employee on PAYE or you are a subcontractor. There's no middle ground anymore. There is no such thing as someone who is an off the books employee, it's illegal.

 

You have two types of income, one is through PAYE the other is non-taxed where you are expected to sort out the tax etc as you are a sole trader/ltd company. If you receive money pre tax then you are a subcontractor no other way around it, no matter what term you use. The company has taken a job that they need help with and you provide help via a contract, when the contract is complete (or at pre determined times) you invoice the customer. 

 

The only other way to get money from a company pre-tax is undeclared cash in hand and the legality of that is obvious.

[eggsarascal]

It seem Sunak didn't think it through though, he forgot there a tens of thousands, possibly more Consultants out there that work from home as freelancers. Big companies have dropped these consultants and many other freelance seat polishers and moved the work overseas and pay zero UK tax now.

[Paddy1000111]

Just now, eggsarascal said:

It seem Sunak didn't think it through though, he forgot there a tens of thousands, possibly more Consultants out there that work from home as freelancers. Big companies have dropped these consultants and many other freelance seat polishers and moved the work overseas and pay zero UK tax now.

Yep, exactly. Also the contract guys were hard workers and high earners. They were the ones earning 60k+ buying expensive toys with a hefty VAT cost. You're average joe on £28k isn't doing that. But he doesn't see the long term damage, just the short term cream off the top !

[Mark Bolam]

28 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

I have not read your post... But if working sub contract.. ie a contractor brought is. My insurance company says that I still need it.

They would say that wouldn’t they?

£££££££

As pointed out in Rich’s case, you can’t be insured for the same job twice.

In his case it turned into an embarrassing bun-fight between the same insurance co!

 

Imagine if I was bought in as a freelancer (with my own insurance), and at the direction of the main contractor cut a limb that wiped out a garage.

 

Who’s insurance co. pays?

[Rich Rule]

18 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

As I keep saying, in the eyes of employment law and HMRC there is no such thing as freelancing. You are either an employee on PAYE or you are a subcontractor. There's no middle ground anymore. There is no such thing as someone who is an off the books employee, it's illegal.

 

You have two types of income, one is through PAYE the other is non-taxed where you are expected to sort out the tax etc as you are a sole trader/ltd company. If you receive money pre tax then you are a subcontractor no other way around it, no matter what term you use. The company has taken a job that they need help with and you provide help via a contract, when the contract is complete (or at pre determined times) you invoice the customer. 

 

The only other way to get money from a company pre-tax is undeclared cash in hand and the legality of that is obvious.

So you keep saying then in the next sentence you mention it was scrapped.  
 

Please make your mind up.

[Paddy1000111]

Just now, Rich Rule said:

So you keep saying then in the next sentence you mention it was scrapped.  
 

Please make your mind up.

It's not scrapped. IR35 already exists, it's a complicated beast. Basically nothing about IR35 is new it's all written in stone. The reform is that where before it was down to the contractor to work out if they fall under IR35 it is now down to the employer with hefty fines to suit. 

[Rich Rule]

6 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

This is part of the issue though, I think the full IR35 reform got delayed as it was originally march this year...

I must have read your previous statement wrong then.

 

Either way, I am offering my advice based on personal experience within the Arb Industry.

 

You are offering advice which may be correct you have experienced from a completely different industry.

 

Makes no odds to me ir35 or it 37, Covid tier 6 or whatever.

 

I left the UK for this kind of thing.

 

Merry Christmas.