Two Rope Working Consultation

[Khriss]

On 21/10/2019 at 15:38, Marc said:

This is another point and issue which reflects tree work, the rope runner is of course very suitable for its application only it will never achieve CE approval.

There are currently a multitude of devices out there such as bulldog bone, akimbo, HH etc. None of which will ever reach CE approval as the standards are just not adequate for tree work.

Even now it appears the RW CE is under review.

 

It just feels the current guidelines, testing standards, PPE requirements and training standards no longer reflect the Arb industry.

 

i enjoyed what felt like the hey day, where I could configure my equipment and build bespoke climbing systems for my needs, no two climbers where ever the same. Our ropes even come in a multitude of diameter, construction and colours, work positioning harness are plentiful especially if you take into account harnesses from other continents not currently available here.

 

As an industry I am curious how many arborist there are compared to rope access technicians.
From what I know of industrial access technicians their training is more in depth, and the equipment and techniques almost identical. I doubt you will find the multitude of colourful equipment and endless configurations as you do in the Arb sector.

 

Jake this is my point you use non CE approved equipment, from your main climbing system you could argue to even your second system, and you mention using an ASAP that I doubt you or anyone on site has any specific training to use.

The added complexities of two rope working in the Arb sector I just feel cannot be reasonably overcome, not any time soon.

I remember when we got three core white nylon n could splice our own prussic strops ( 1996 ) an our ground man called " yr chainsaw is fueled started and ready Sire ! Have At the bounder and damn his impudence !! " 

 

Obvs some things do have to change....... K

Edited October 31, 2019 by Khriss
Obvs some things have to change....but I don't see why I should ;p

[jarborist]

Some good points we'll made javelin 10.

[Marc]

On 31/10/2019 at 20:12, Khriss said:

I remember when we got three core white nylon n could splice our own prussic strops ( 1996 ) an our ground man called " yr chainsaw is fueled started and ready Sire ! Have At the bounder and damn his impudence !! " 

 

Obvs some things do have to change....... K

Yeah, my point was the innovation that was climber driven, the homemade devices/pulley savers etc. Market places opened up through ordering from the states.

it saddens me that I have to stifle the culture of innovation that drives efficiency and safety in the work place from intelligent proficient arborists.

But alas if you want to comply to regulations there is no place for that.

System configuration is key all parts certified and appropriate to intended use. Which is not a big problem as there now is so much good equipment available. Yet I still see those using as I did equipment from other sectors and trying to hash it into their day to day systems, only now as the responsible person I have to say no! Even though the equipment is highly suitable for the intended task, perhaps even offering advantages over off the shelf kit.

 

The fact is we now have to implement two rope working, it’s a ridiculous position, we will be the only country I’m aware in the world who will operate this way. And there in lies the problem with health and safety it doesn’t always advance us for the better and can be a backward step. So let’s see what happens if it can prevent some fatalities then that can only be a good thing, however it unnecessarily places those proficient at their job and able to not fall out of trees at a great level complexity they just did not need.

 

At the end of the day I just can’t help but feel this whole thing is flawed, greater complexity and more restrictions are not what is required, just more robust training and professionalism in the industry.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Marc

[Khriss]

I am hoping not ( an indeed praying not) that if or when these new standards are implemented, and the fatality rate does not fall, the HSE realises finally what a missed opportunity this had been. K

[Marc]

1 hour ago, Khriss said:

I am hoping not ( an indeed praying not) that if or when these new standards are implemented, and the fatality rate does not fall, the HSE realises finally what a missed opportunity this had been. K

From my understanding they were implemented in 2005 and as of immediate effect we are to be climbing on a two rope system as default. We are effectively in breach of the regulations.

We are amending our RA’s and looking to ensure our team always give consideration to two rope climbing, being that most of them have or do work outside of the UK it will be difficult to implement as understandable attitudes are that one rope climbing as default is considered safe and the current hierarchy for them once aerial work is to be undertaken is can i climb with one rope if yes carry on, if not will a second line allow me to achieve safe work positioning if yes carry on. If no go back to the beginning and look for a safe alternative solution. I could see no problem with the current industry practice that has been taught at grass roots level for years.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Marc
Pointless last comment

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

All, "yes" HSE have said they expect 2 ropes...and have done so since 2003/5  

 

So, please think carefully about at what stage in the climb you are 'most at risk', e.g. on access (because you haven't inspected AND loaded the anchor at that point)  / when working (because of increased risk when using saws etc.), and ensure you fully meet the requirements. Further than that please await publication of the new Technical Guide and revised ICoP...hopefully Jan. 2020 to better inform and steer your decisions.

 

Regards all,

Paul

[jarborist]

How does the ICOP fit into the legal/guidance framework?

Is it able to take an industry stance (Industry Code of Practice), or is there something that enforces the ICOP to meet with HSE suggestions ? obviously needs some compromise to stand up , but.........................

[Marc]

37 minutes ago, jarborist said:

How does the ICOP fit into the legal/guidance framework?

Is it able to take an industry stance (Industry Code of Practice), or is there something that enforces the ICOP to meet with HSE suggestions ? obviously needs some compromise to stand up , but.........................

How do you mean?

There is no suggestions here... 

[scottythepinetree]

On 05/11/2019 at 13:33, jarborist said:

How does the ICOP fit into the legal/guidance framework?

Is it able to take an industry stance (Industry Code of Practice), or is there something that enforces the ICOP to meet with HSE suggestions ? obviously needs some compromise to stand up , but.........................

Codes of Practice cannot contradict legislation. The hierarchy of legislation is:
1) Primary Legislation - Acts of Parliament (Basically "The Law")

2) Secondary Legislation - Regulations (Cannot contradict primary legislation, or where there is any doubt, primary legislation rules.)

3) ICOP/ACOP - Published and approved interpretation of the law (Acts and regulations) written in plain easy to understand language.

 

[jarborist]

Thanks Scotty. That's sort of what I meant., but my point would be as long as the icop interprets the wah regs legally (perhaps as before) then what is the precedent /law when the professional body of an industry differs from the hse recommendation. To me surely it is the professionals who are better informed with the aid of hse as interpreters on legislation. 

If you slightly change a quote from Walter Lippman (us political commentator) it's the point I'm trying to make ' in a free society the state does not administer the affairs of people (arbs). It administers justice among people who conduct their own affairs'. And as many people from Douglas Bader (flying ace in ww2) the dalai lama and  p. Picasso have said similar ' learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist'. I will sign off now as since my last query I think the hope of anything sensible happening is now too late. Climb well.