Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[Tom D]

I received this today. I hope as many of you as possible write to your own mp’s to get the HSE to take the views of the industry seriously.

to Tom Dixon.pdf

[Andrew McEwan]

18 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

And we arranged a demo involving several climbers to show how what we do currently is safe if employed correctly by competent people...but still they insist on 2 ropes.

Whilst my colleague, Simon, didn’t sleep rough at any stage, or at least not that I’m aware of, he did have several sleepless nights given the gravity and impact of the situation.

 

Did the AA demo involve showing HSE what two roped pruning, dismantling and actual cutting actually looked liked and the problems it creates? Or was it some guys flying up and down on their rope wrenches srt rec climbing and asserting 'this is fine' to HSE? If so I can see why it might not have gone down well. 

[Guest]

For most small firms just doing private work it probably won't change anything and climbers will carry on as they are. In practise most climbers don't adhere to these very black and white policies/ best practises all the time - I doubt anybody drags 20m+ of mainline through the top of a row of conifers with a lanyard when they're retopping them, or double ties-in in a small apple tree for example (if you tie in at all?). It will be a ball-ache for companies doing public and higher profile work. Can you imagine repollarding street tree Limes with 2 main line anchor points when you can barely squeeze into the canopy to start cutting. And the rope management on the floor - Hi Karrumba!

Two main anchors for rope access dangling 200ft off the side of a building makes sense. Two main anchors 10ft off the ground in a fruit tree is ridiculous! 

If it was a recommendation for use in suitable circumstances, then ok, but the worry is it sounds like it's going to be an all or nothing policy.

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

16 minutes ago, Andrew McEwan said:

Did the AA demo involve showing HSE what two roped pruning, dismantling and actual cutting actually looked liked and the problems it creates? Or was it some guys flying up and down on their rope wrenches srt rec climbing and asserting 'this is fine' to HSE? If so I can see why it might not have gone down well. 

No cutting was involved. The demo, as I mentioned, was about what we do currently and why, if done correctly, it is deemed safe and effective.

[Andrew McEwan]

2 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

No cutting was involved. The demo, as I mentioned, was about what we do currently and why, if done correctly, it is deemed safe and effective.

Doesn't what we do revolve around cutting?  Surely HSE needed to see the implications of what they are insisting on, especially if they left the demo done on behalf of the whole industry thinking 'that isn't safe or effective'. Working demo no.2 perhaps?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

8 minutes ago, Calamity Wayne said:

For most small firms just doing private work it probably won't change anything and climbers will carry on as they are. In practise most climbers don't adhere to these very black and white policies/ best practises all the time - I doubt anybody drags 20m+ of mainline through the top of a row of conifers with a lanyard when they're retopping them, or double ties-in in a small apple tree for example (if you tie in at all?). It will be a ball-ache for companies doing public and higher profile work. Can you imagine repollarding street tree Limes with 2 main line anchor points when you can barely squeeze into the canopy to start cutting. And the rope management on the floor - Hi Karrumba!

Two main anchors for rope access dangling 200ft off the side of a building makes sense. Two main anchors 10ft off the ground in a fruit tree is ridiculous! 

If it was a recommendation for use in suitable circumstances, then ok, but the worry is it sounds like it's going to be an all or nothing policy.

 

Having got a better grasps of the situation myself today, clarifying things with my colleague at Head Office who has actually been leading on the project.

 

If you are on a non-SRT/SRWP system, and you can clearly demonstrate that x2 lines is not "reasonably practicable" because of, for instance, very dense canopied trees and increased time, equipment needs, cost etc., which should be recorded, then you can proceed as before, in essence.

 

However, if you are on an SRT/SRWP system you will need to clearly demonstrate it creates a higher level of risk to personal safety and absolute record it.

 

Hope this helps, but still the assumption going forward is 2 ropes (+ lanyard when cutting) 'justifying' why if you're only using one (and with a much stronger justification, based on increased personal safety, if SRT'ing.)

 

Paul

[Mick Dempsey]

So if you’re climbing with a zz/Prussia/blake’s on a double rope system, and a lanyard for another attachément point when cutting you’re ok?

Edited September 3, 2019 by Mick Dempsey

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

13 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

So if you’re climbing with a zz on a double rope system, and a lanyard for another attachément point when cutting you’re ok?

What HSE have said is 2 independent lines on 2 independent anchors =

 

[Mick Dempsey]

5 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

What HSE have said is 2 independent lines on 2 independent anchors =

 

Ok, I’m a bit hard of thinking, but your second paragraph says on a non srt system (ie. drt) you can use a number of different ways to avoid using two lines, as long as you record it on your RA.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

2 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Ok, I’m a bit hard of thinking, but your second paragraph says on a non srt system (ie. drt) you can use a number of different ways to avoid using two lines, as long as you record it on your RA.

In all cases, as I understand it, HSEs start point is x2 ropes.

Your assertion is correct.