Uk holly is this a shrub or tree

[MattyF]

My only experience of near prosecution was damaging a hazel reducing an ash in a woodland TPO i made the point that its a shrub and the TO made the point that I needed his permission to have cut the stem off I had damaged which led me to my reply.
I was kind of under the impression after that any woody plant was protected all young trees, hazel shrubs etc.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

20 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

Very different animals. Area TPO covers what's there at date of order, woodland what's there and what grows after

Just to expand on this ("thanks for the opportunity Gary ") 'best practice' these days dictates that the 'Area' ("blanket") Order is used as a temporary measure until such time a more accurate assessment of the trees can be made and then subsequently designated as individuals, groups or woodlands accordingly.  

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

4 minutes ago, MattyF said:

My only experience of near prosecution was damaging a hazel reducing an ash in a woodland TPO i made the point that its a shrub and the TO made the point that I needed his permission to have cut the stem off I had damaged which led me to my reply.
I was kind of under the impression after that any woody plant was protected all young trees, hazel shrubs etc.

'If' the Hazel was an integral part of the woodland, and probably of significant size, then the TO may be of the opinion it is included in the order. The guidance only states that 'shrubs and hedges' would not normally be included in the TPO but, IME, 'shrubs', including exceptionally Portugese Laurel and commonly Hazel, can be included. (REMEMBER a shrub is more a mode of growth than a botanical classification of plant and the guidance states that, for the purposes of the TCPA, a tree is whatever someone might consider to be a tree...helpful eh?  )

[MattyF]

Hi Paul ,it was a stem definitely under 75 mm at 1.5 m so would not of even been covered even in a conservation area, my thinking was I was doing it a favour after crushing it rolling an ash top out on to it , I don’t think you could even see it from the tree.

As it was an LA job any way I think they where just making a point about being more careful..

Maybe I was not paying enough attention to peter Annette’s lecturers back in 95 ! But I’m sure he said also that any planted trees/shrubs in a TPO area are protected but I imagine Chris has probably a lot deeper more recent knowledge than me on the subject so stand to be corrected.

 

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

4 minutes ago, MattyF said:

Hi Paul ,it was a stem definitely under 75 mm at 1.5 m so would not of even been covered even in a conservation area, my thinking was I was doing it a favour after crushing it rolling an ash top out on to it , I don’t think you could even see it from the tree.

...was that before or after you'd rolled the Ash on top of it?  The guidance does refer to trees and saplings so stuff well under 75mm dia. could be included.

Remember too the TPO regs changed in 2012, well in England at least, albeit I'm not sure anything changed of relevance to this thread...Chris??? 

[MattyF]

[emoji23] was definitely not after Paul.

[Gary Prentice]

5 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Just to expand on this ("thanks for the opportunity Gary ") 'best practice' these days dictates that the 'Area' ("blanket") Order is used as a temporary measure until such time a more accurate assessment of the trees can be made and then subsequently designated as individuals, groups or woodlands accordingly.  

Being pedantic, the Area order was always meant to be a temporary measure used on the grounds of expediency (sp?) until such time as the trees could be properly assessed. 

[Chris at eden]

23 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

'If' the Hazel was an integral part of the woodland, and probably of significant size, then the TO may be of the opinion it is included in the order. The guidance only states that 'shrubs and hedges' would not normally be included in the TPO but, IME, 'shrubs', including exceptionally Portugese Laurel and commonly Hazel, can be included. (REMEMBER a shrub is more a mode of growth than a botanical classification of plant and the guidance states that, for the purposes of the TCPA, a tree is whatever someone might consider to be a tree...helpful eh?  )

Not advocating felling large shrubs without consent but what the TO considers as appropriate and what legal will enforce can often be two very different things.  Again helpful - not so much!   

[Chris at eden]

17 hours ago, Gary Prentice said:

the Area order was always meant to be a temporary measure

 

That's a good one Gary.  Once they are on, they are on. 

 

I did some subcontract works for an LPA processing TPO apps a few years ago while they were without a TO.  I came across area orders from the 60's which covered fields which are now housing estates, huge areas with hundreds of houses.  They also had one from the 50s that had a P designation.  It stands for parkland, I had to Google it!!!  Not sure how that would stand up to enforcement.     

[Gary Prentice]

I like ancient Area TPOs. It's fun tying the LA up in knots when they're rattling sabres about contraventions when the solution would have been to survey the trees properly during the previous twenty, thirty or forty years.