Climber <£170 Leicestershire - must pass criteria!

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

57 minutes ago, carlos said:

id let the company owner and the people who decide to work for him worry about that side of things

I don’t have a horse in the race but frankly, if everyone adopted that attitude we’d just as well discard 100’s of years of legal history. 

 

What about the appalling tree fell many are commenting on? Just leave it to the saw man and the cyclist? 

 

Its a forum, you should expect differing opinions but the law is the law....

[Squaredy]

46 minutes ago, Yournamehere said:

Yes let's.

No paid holiday like a proper employee, no N.I. contributions from the employer, no legal representation in case of accident or illness in fact no responsibility  to the employee whatsoever.

Just be glad you've got a job there, and stop complaining.

Welcome to the fourteenth century.

I agree there are advantages to being employed, but there are some very real benefits to being a subbie as well.  I think it is very sad that it seems to get such a bad press these days.

 

When I left school at 16 I soon got a normal PAYE job (not tree work but that is beside the point), and I progressed reasonably as I worked hard and tried to improve myself, but after 10 years I was in a job I hated and was not liked by my employer - in summary it was no longer going well.  Despite having a mortgage I quit with no proper plan of how I would manage.  Within a couple of months I had my first contract, and couldn't believe how much better it was than being an employee.  I was doing exactly the same job, but I was treated with far more respect, my responsibilities were clear and targets were achievable, management were really helpful and encouraging.  Did I miss the paid holiday or sick pay?  Not at all - I had plenty of time off, and earned at least as much overall.  Lack of job security?  I loved the flexibility and the opportunity to change to something slightly different.  Did I ever struggle to find work - not really as I got a good reputation and worked hard.

 

There are two sides to every coin - PAYE is not the best scenario for everyone.

[carlos]

28 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

I don’t have a horse in the race but frankly, if everyone adopted that attitude we’d just as well discard 100’s of years of legal history. 

 

What about the appalling tree fell many are commenting on? Just leave it to the saw man and the cyclist? 

 

Its a forum, you should expect differing opinions but the law is the law....

i just felt that the guy was offering a job vacancy that may or may not suit someone, not really opening up a thread on his business model.

i cant really see that cyclist near miss is much of comparison tbh.

i do believe the employment section was once locked to the op for this very reason.

i see your points but just not sure of its merits in the op,s post.

but as you say i dont have a horse in the race either

[beddowtreeltd]

Some of the subby lads who work with me, work at weekends on their own stuff as well, if they are injured on their own work it would mean the business would bear a cost during the recovery period if PAYE, they choose s/e as it fits their situation.  A lot of the climbers I have worked with, work more than 5 days most weeks anyway, particularly when they are trying to save for a house or travels etc.

The self employed option can be very tax efficient for the subby, particularly if VAT registered.  It also means they can do a short period e.g. till they go back to whatever other country they work in.  From a business point of view it makes very little difference, a full time PAYE roll will have the same cost to the business as a self employed position just the subby takes more home and sorts out their own tax etc.  With S/E there is also an option to split the 5 days into a 2 and 3 day slot.  I don't think from the rates I am prepared to pay it shows I am looking to short change someone.

The role also offers PAYE so really all in all most bases covered.  Ultimately the decision rests with the climber anyway.  I'm not fishing with barbed hooks!  It wouldn't be in either parties interest to start a working relationship without being fully happy and committed as neither party will benefit long term.  

Some of the S/E climbers are aware of highs and lows in work flow and payment issues when bouncing around some companies (this is not slander just based on feedback from subbys), they may think that'll suit me as its one place, I'll get paid weekly and I don't need to worry about chasing bookings for 6mths.  They may think that place sounds like its for me, I'll start S/E to check it out and if everything is good I'll switch to PAYE.

 

The business does have horses but more for logging than racing ? 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, carlos said:

(1) i just felt that the guy was offering a job vacancy that may or may not suit someone, not really opening up a thread on his business model.

(2) i cant really see that cyclist near miss is much of comparison tbh.

(3) i do believe the employment section was once locked to the op for this very reason.

(4) i see your points but just not sure of its merits in the op,s post.

but as you say i dont have a horse in the race either

(1) Yes, of course, totally agree.  My original question which highlighted the potential issue of employment status as relates to current employment law was on the basis that some reading an open thread might not be as aware of potential issues as others might be.  New to the sector / newly qualified climbers might  not be as aware of the potential implications as those that are more experienced.  AT is a broad church.

 

(2) The intention of the comparison was that the fell / cyclist issue (being the most recent example) of AT members 'looking' at and discussing the working practices of others was, I felt, a valid comparison in that it directly affects no-one here other than the people directly involved in it but that is not seen as a barrier to open discussion.  This employment scenario affects no-one here other than those directly involved in it.  2 scenarios where a very limited number of people may be directly affected but 1 seems to be open season for discussion, the other seems to be suggested is closed season.  Who decides what is open season and what is closed season (apart from the obvious Mr B? since it's his train set!) 

 

(3) Yes, also agree, I guess all this is just background noise and could be a disincentive to post job vacancies here.  On the other hand, it also has the potential to open up lines of debate but to be sure, the S/E v PAYE topic has been 'done to death' previously.

 

(4) Agree again - no more after this!  ?

 

Final point, and from the perspective of totally understanding the flexibility and advantage of using subby assistance (and providing it), the decision doesn't rest with the employer or the employed as to which category they think they sit in - that decision rests with HMRC alone (unless challenged at Tribunal when the Judge will decide) and can lead to significant headaches if any party disagrees with them.   

 

 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

38 minutes ago, beddowtreeltd said:

Some of the subby lads who work with me, work at weekends on their own stuff as well, if they are injured on their own work it would mean the business would bear a cost during the recovery period if PAYE, they choose s/e as it fits their situation.  A lot of the climbers I have worked with, work more than 5 days most weeks anyway, particularly when they are trying to save for a house or travels etc.

The self employed option can be very tax efficient for the subby, particularly if VAT registered.  It also means they can do a short period e.g. till they go back to whatever other country they work in.  From a business point of view it makes very little difference, a full time PAYE roll will have the same cost to the business as a self employed position just the subby takes more home and sorts out their own tax etc.  With S/E there is also an option to split the 5 days into a 2 and 3 day slot.  I don't think from the rates I am prepared to pay it shows I am looking to short change someone.

The role also offers PAYE so really all in all most bases covered.  Ultimately the decision rests with the climber anyway.  I'm not fishing with barbed hooks!  It wouldn't be in either parties interest to start a working relationship without being fully happy and committed as neither party will benefit long term.  

Some of the S/E climbers are aware of highs and lows in work flow and payment issues when bouncing around some companies (this is not slander just based on feedback from subbys), they may think that'll suit me as its one place, I'll get paid weekly and I don't need to worry about chasing bookings for 6mths.  They may think that place sounds like its for me, I'll start S/E to check it out and if everything is good I'll switch to PAYE.

 

The business does have horses but more for logging than racing ? 

Apol's for derail. 

[beddowtreeltd]

No worries, its a free world with freedom of choice ? ?

[Steve Bullman]

3 hours ago, carlos said:

i just felt that the guy was offering a job vacancy that may or may not suit someone, not really opening up a thread on his business model.

i cant really see that cyclist near miss is much of comparison tbh.

i do believe the employment section was once locked to the op for this very reason.

i see your points but just not sure of its merits in the op,s post.

but as you say i dont have a horse in the race either

 

14 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

(1) Yes, of course, totally agree.  My original question which highlighted the potential issue of employment status as relates to current employment law was on the basis that some reading an open thread might not be as aware of potential issues as others might be.  New to the sector / newly qualified climbers might  not be as aware of the potential implications as those that are more experienced.  AT is a broad church.

 

(2) The intention of the comparison was that the fell / cyclist issue (being the most recent example) of AT members 'looking' at and discussing the working practices of others was, I felt, a valid comparison in that it directly affects no-one here other than the people directly involved in it but that is not seen as a barrier to open discussion.  This employment scenario affects no-one here other than those directly involved in it.  2 scenarios where a very limited number of people may be directly affected but 1 seems to be open season for discussion, the other seems to be suggested is closed season.  Who decides what is open season and what is closed season (apart from the obvious Mr B? since it's his train set!) 

 

(3) Yes, also agree, I guess all this is just background noise and could be a disincentive to post job vacancies here.  On the other hand, it also has the potential to open up lines of debate but to be sure, the S/E v PAYE topic has been 'done to death' previously.

 

(4) Agree again - no more after this!  ?

 

Final point, and from the perspective of totally understanding the flexibility and advantage of using subby assistance (and providing it), the decision doesn't rest with the employer or the employed as to which category they think they sit in - that decision rests with HMRC alone (unless challenged at Tribunal when the Judge will decide) and can lead to significant headaches if any party disagrees with them.   

 

 

Yep the employment section was read only, and probably was a better option.

However i'm currently developing a dedicated employment section on arbtalk for arborist and tree surgery jobs which will be a set up more akin to the classifieds section.  People will be able to pick and choose which section they want to advertise in then

[beddowtreeltd]

18 hours ago, 5 shires said:

Thanks for asking but am way past all that now,have been running my own set up for many years now,all I can say is if you are ever stuck for someone who know s what they are doing to run a few jobs or oversee some work you want doing just let me know,may be in a few years if you need someone on board who knows how to run a team or three give me a shout.

Would that be a non climbing sales / management role down the line 5 shires?  Pm if so as its something I have an eye on.

[wood cutter]

if your looking for a decent trainer/assesor richard gutteridge is your man. commercial arb training.