Transition to self employed (wages etc)

[Carl1991]

On 15/03/2018 at 16:06, benedmonds said:

Assuming it is you wanting to go Self Employed

 

Look at it from your bosses point of view, he has trained you and got you to the position where you are and is paying you a reasonable wage, should be providing you holiday, ppe, pension, equipment, training etc.. 

 

He doesn't want you to leave if you are freelance you can drop him with no notice and leave him without a climber.

He should NOT be employing you full time, but calling you freelance as that makes you an employee and he could be liable for holiday, pensions, tax etc..

 

If you are doing your own bits and bobs, can he trust that when a neighbour asks for works that you are going to give him the job or will you steal it?  Is it in his interest to provide you a handy way of building a business that will be in direct competition to his own?

 

As others have said if you are £90 a day PAYE the £130 is probably not going to be a pay rise and would probably cost the employer less.. It however could cause friction between other employees who might not understand the difference between PAYE and freelance rates.  People on here are constantly comparing paye day rates with freelance rates in a stupid manner. 

 

We have done it the other way lots of times and taken on freelancers who then go full time, they get what looks like a big pay cut in their daily rates.. If I did it the other way I would be looking for a replacement employee pretty quick and as soon as he/she were found chances are you would lose that regular work..

 

It's not that simple.. 

I've priced his work in his absence for 4 years and never sidelined a job. Even the quick 40 quid ones where i could ram a tonne bag in the boot of my car. Everyone else is self employed, there's a 40 y/o groundie with 1 years experience and no tickets on 85. 

My question is though. What do you other class as a "Good" climber. 

 

I know its should be a practical demo but wgat do you guys look for?

Thanks

[s o c]

Good climber=

safe: does a good assessment of job and not afraid to say something is too dangerous or outside comfort zone.

always tied in twice.

koows his cuts

dosent do daft one handing.

minds his gear.

consistant: meets target on most jobs.

team player: not arrogant, is considerate of ground crew, helps with cleanup .

Goes home safe every evening .

not much more to it really.

 

[Steve Bullman]

As others have said, £140 should be your minimum to start out with your experience.  It’s 2018 after all

[Jon@CareFell]

I have read this with interest. This is at a slight tangent but as a retort to some of the comments in the thread, I am an employer and twice recently I have offered people salaried positions that on paper were better offers than the self employed day rate they were asking but to be told that they want to stay self employed. They can claim tax relief for their trucks, fuel, tools and any other nick nacks that they can squeeze through, possibly not declare 100% of their earnings and pay little or no tax and use their tax deductible tools for Saturday work. Now I know we all say “full time self employed is not right” (and illegal), and it is not but what do you do if the other companies locally are happy to have full time subcontractors? Pay way over the odds and charge the extra to the customer? I can’t see that working. It is not by any means everyone, some people are happy to be employed but there are a lot of people who don’t want it. I am not judging anyone for it but am trying to pose the other side of the argument from the evil employer taking advantage of the poor employee scenario that so often seems to be bounded about.

[Rough Hewn]

I have read this with interest. This is at a slight tangent but as a retort to some of the comments in the thread, I am an employer and twice recently I have offered people salaried positions that on paper were better offers than the self employed day rate they were asking but to be told that they want to stay self employed. They can claim tax relief for their trucks, fuel, tools and any other nick nacks that they can squeeze through, possibly not declare 100% of their earnings and pay little or no tax and use their tax deductible tools for Saturday work. Now I know we all say “full time self employed is not right” (and illegal), and it is not but what do you do if the other companies locally are happy to have full time subcontractors? Pay way over the odds and charge the extra to the customer? I can’t see that working. It is not by any means everyone, some people are happy to be employed but there are a lot of people who don’t want it. I am not judging anyone for it but am trying to pose the other side of the argument from the evil employer taking advantage of the poor employee scenario that so often seems to be bounded about.

A conscientious employer!
Wait til your subbies start working for some "less conscientious" contractors.
They'll come back.
£10/£20 a day more for being treated like a ****, lack of health and safety...
No holiday,pension,sick pay etc.
From experience I know you run a tidy ship and you pay fairly.
[emoji106]

[Jon@CareFell]

Cheers Saul. It was not meant to be a gripe at all, just an observation of the market place, the other firms treat the guys well. It’s just not always clear cut. Also I am always left confused that people are still using £150 as a base mark for SE day rates. I started out 10 years ago and £150 was the going rate for a good climber, I was led to believe that at the time it had been the going rate previously for 10-15 years, maybe some of the older guys can say if this is right? If it is then 20-25 years with no increase in wages?! I could not afford to pay my guys more for regular work as it would start to price us out but will we all still be expecting £150 in another 10,15,20 years? Just a thought/observation .... don’t know what to do about it mind....... everyone would have to start asking for more at the same time I guess.

[skyhuck]

1 hour ago, Jon@CareFell said:

Cheers Saul. It was not meant to be a gripe at all, just an observation of the market place, the other firms treat the guys well. It’s just not always clear cut. Also I am always left confused that people are still using £150 as a base mark for SE day rates. I started out 10 years ago and £150 was the going rate for a good climber, I was led to believe that at the time it had been the going rate previously for 10-15 years, maybe some of the older guys can say if this is right? If it is then 20-25 years with no increase in wages?! I could not afford to pay my guys more for regular work as it would start to price us out but will we all still be expecting £150 in another 10,15,20 years? Just a thought/observation .... don’t know what to do about it mind....... everyone would have to start asking for more at the same time I guess.

Most peoples wages have not risen much the last 10 years, in fact some have fallen.

 

As for 20+years ago, I started in the mid 90's as a groundie on £30 a day, learned to climb and went straight to £60 and thought I was a millionaire  (both SE)  

[Jard84]

I’d take the self employed option mate. From the sounds of it, we both have a similar amount of time served in the industry. If your boss isn’t interested in upping your money to keep you happy then all that’s going to happen is you’ll end up resenting everything you’re asked to do if you stay.

I’ve tried full time employment, hated it. Felt I always had a firm hold of the shitty end of the stick and only really got control back over my working week and general happiness when I went SE again.

£120 a day is what I take if I’m climbing, £100 a day if I’m groundsman for someone. £150 is the golden spot I’m working towards but in my own opinion. I’m not quick enough and have no rigging gear to warrant £150.

Take the plunge. Shop around. Work for other people, that’s where you’ll really learn things, get your name out there and most importantly make sure you are getting a good deal. Don’t be afraid to ask for more money if you feel you’re being asked to do something that warrants extra cash.

Be confident too, if you’re a competent and safe climber. Not everyone can do what you do so know your worth.

It might seem scary but if you’re a hard worker, punctual, pleasant to be around and understand your job. You’ll get more work. If your current boss values your input, he’ll pay your day rate to keep you coming in for him.

Good luck

[Jon@CareFell]

Most peoples wages have not risen much the last 10 years, in fact some have fallen.
 
As for 20+years ago, I started in the mid 90's as a groundie on £30 a day, learned to climb and went straight to £60 and thought I was a millionaire [emoji3] (both SE)  

I would say that real world wages have stagnated or even fallen taking inflation into consideration but the average cash in the bank weekly wage has increased across the board from roughly £435 a week to £510 in 10 years, what’s that, 17.2%?

[Jon@CareFell]

I guess that is only part of the picture though as unemployment skews it etc...