Low impact forestry services in Devon and the South West

[ESS]

Any machine will make marks if the conditions are wet .

The reality is that an 8 wheel harvester will exert no more ground pressure than a tractor/trailer outfit , same with 8 wheel forwarder, plus the bonus of 8 wheel drive producing less wheel spin.

We have just lifted 150 acres of brash that was harvested without harvester/forwarder running on brash mat to aid brash recovery.Harvesting was completed in December and there was virtually no marking.Even header racks have not pushed through.

Its easy to say harvesters make a mess, I started in this industry when skidders were used, and we made some awful messes on some sites. If you were to look at the ground conditions on some of the sites that harvester/forwarders are working anything would make a mess, the reason these machines are working these sites is because nothing else could that would fit into the financial constraints put on contractors,as an example ,the brash site I have just mentioned was harvested /forwarded for £6.20/t.No other method could come anywhere near that .

The highest percentage of timber sasles is competitive tender, and most landowners for obvious reasons look at the bottom line. 

Some sites have to be worked in unfavourable conditions to meet time constraints, that's part of forestry, we cannot make weather to suit us.

I am old school , I have spent over 40 years on saws, but things have changed, I would imagine a lot of contractors would prefer an investment of 50-60k to make a living as opposed to 650k for one outfit,but handcutting is being discouraged now, particularly on steep sites,plus a lack of experienced cutters to produce the goods. Harvesters are comfortably working 30-35 degree inclines, and with the introduction of T winches this is getting pushed further. Its what the industry demands. just like the move fromhorses to tractors many years ago.

[Big J]

2 hours ago, ESS said:

Any machine will make marks if the conditions are wet .

The reality is that an 8 wheel harvester will exert no more ground pressure than a tractor/trailer outfit , same with 8 wheel forwarder, plus the bonus of 8 wheel drive producing less wheel spin.

We have just lifted 150 acres of brash that was harvested without harvester/forwarder running on brash mat to aid brash recovery.Harvesting was completed in December and there was virtually no marking.Even header racks have not pushed through.

Its easy to say harvesters make a mess, I started in this industry when skidders were used, and we made some awful messes on some sites. If you were to look at the ground conditions on some of the sites that harvester/forwarders are working anything would make a mess, the reason these machines are working these sites is because nothing else could that would fit into the financial constraints put on contractors,as an example ,the brash site I have just mentioned was harvested /forwarded for £6.20/t.No other method could come anywhere near that .

The highest percentage of timber sasles is competitive tender, and most landowners for obvious reasons look at the bottom line. 

Some sites have to be worked in unfavourable conditions to meet time constraints, that's part of forestry, we cannot make weather to suit us.

I am old school , I have spent over 40 years on saws, but things have changed, I would imagine a lot of contractors would prefer an investment of 50-60k to make a living as opposed to 650k for one outfit,but handcutting is being discouraged now, particularly on steep sites,plus a lack of experienced cutters to produce the goods. Harvesters are comfortably working 30-35 degree inclines, and with the introduction of T winches this is getting pushed further. Its what the industry demands. just like the move fromhorses to tractors many years ago.

ESS, I respect your experience in the industry but I wouldn't work for those rates. For too long forestry has made too little money and it's a skilled and risky business. 

The price of timber roadside is high enough for everyone to do well on it and I pride myself on doing a good job, but not being the cheapest.

[ESS]

Nobody wants to work for those rates, and yes there is plenty of money available for more to be passed to contractors.

.Its actually marketing companies that are competing for parcels that create the situation, but the industry has always worked that way.Machines have become faster , and harvesters are turning 400t + days out on the right sites.

The harvesting contractor made a good job on the site I mentioned, and even though it was pine there was still a 90-95% brash recovery, which in turn saved the landowner around 60k in rake and burn costs, plus obviously the environmental benefits.

250t a day average on this site would be making money, which was easily achievable in that particular crop.

Its horses for courses at the end of the day, and we still hand cut if its advantageous to the operation.

I could argue that there is less physical risk involved in machine harvesting as opposed to hand cut.

Brash recovery is becoming an important factor now, and obviously mechanised harvesting favours this, even from thinnings where conditions allow.

The company I am with have invested heavily in a low impact harvester/forwarder combo that is due any day now, but it has its economic limitations and I realise that.

I am a strong campaigner for shorter working weeks for operators, as I am for increased rates for cutters.Personally I think £200 a day for a skilled cutter falls way short of the mark,there has been a lot of open discussion in the industry recently and hopefully things will change on that front.

 

[Big J]

13 hours ago, ESS said:

Nobody wants to work for those rates, and yes there is plenty of money available for more to be passed to contractors.

.Its actually marketing companies that are competing for parcels that create the situation, but the industry has always worked that way.Machines have become faster , and harvesters are turning 400t + days out on the right sites.

The harvesting contractor made a good job on the site I mentioned, and even though it was pine there was still a 90-95% brash recovery, which in turn saved the landowner around 60k in rake and burn costs, plus obviously the environmental benefits.

250t a day average on this site would be making money, which was easily achievable in that particular crop.

Its horses for courses at the end of the day, and we still hand cut if its advantageous to the operation.

I could argue that there is less physical risk involved in machine harvesting as opposed to hand cut.

Brash recovery is becoming an important factor now, and obviously mechanised harvesting favours this, even from thinnings where conditions allow.

The company I am with have invested heavily in a low impact harvester/forwarder combo that is due any day now, but it has its economic limitations and I realise that.

I am a strong campaigner for shorter working weeks for operators, as I am for increased rates for cutters.Personally I think £200 a day for a skilled cutter falls way short of the mark,there has been a lot of open discussion in the industry recently and hopefully things will change on that front.

 

You are the first person I have come across to suggest that £200 is below market rate. I know of one cutter (not local) who is on more than that generally, but he is extremely experienced doing specialised work. For run of the mill cutting, in a variety of scenarios (production based and day rate based), £200 is well above average for this part of the country. 

[ESS]

2 hours ago, Big J said:

You are the first person I have come across to suggest that £200 is below market rate. I know of one cutter (not local) who is on more than that generally, but he is extremely experienced doing specialised work. For run of the mill cutting, in a variety of scenarios (production based and day rate based), £200 is well above average for this part of the country. 

I didn't say market rate. I have cut in your area a few years ago, the rate then was £160 8 hours on site, winter hours,so how much different is that to what you are paying?

Heres the thing that tends to get overlooked,..when a site is priced for harvesting there is a rate for cutting and a rate for extraction(including winching where necessary) and that becomes a combined rate for doing the job.

On the site you are working from the photos and my own experience I would have had the handcut rate at £9/t.,i also said I would expect 25t in an 8 hour shift, you said your guys were producing 30t in a slightly longer day, you also quoted £8-9 /tWhich ever way you look at it neither of those sets of figures amount to £200 a day, as a cutter I know which I would rather have.

The true market rate is £9/t if that's the rate put on the job,if it was £8/t put on the job for cutting then that would be the market rate.

What I actually said was I didn't think £200 a day for skilled cutters was enough, for that matter neither does the rest of the industry. There are a lot of machine ops on £20/hour now, + in some cases a vehicle and fuel card on top,no saw expenses etc, How does it work that a guy on a saw in the same industry is working for less ? yet you are the one that's saying that you wouldn't want to work for the harvesting rates I quoted and there is enough money in timber for higher rates ? lets be fair here.

I will always stand the corner of cutters,thats where I started, you only need to break the costs down , the mileage some of these guys are doing to see £200 doesn't go very far.

[ESS]

As an indication of what I am saying about cutters rates,... the last time I felled on piece was over 2 years ago, bearing in mind I am in my 60s. The first site there was roadside timber stolen so we never got a true weight, but it still returned an average of just over £210 per man day.

The next site we were cutting in 28 degree heat and were short measured on that one too, but returned over £270 per man day.

The next one @£9 /t returned £235 man day accommodation provided, 3 days on this site I could barely walk, never mind cut, because of my years on saws etc. average working day was around 7 hrs cutting. Anyone that says cutting is good for you needs to be asking those that have been doing it for 20-30 years before making those kind of statements. It screws bodies . but... if you look at those figures which was the true market value for the job why would I want to cut at £20 /hr ?

Why do you think the industry is short of fallers ?

[Big J]

That is fair enough. I am planning to increase my wages once the guys working for me have more experience working to my specs, have more tickets and are more independent of me in terms of accommodation. For instance, two chaps that came down from northern Scotland for work in January and February were each paid £200/day, but had accommodation pretty much onsite paid for them, as well as fuel money for driving down. A different chap from central Scotland who's on this site had half his flight money paid for (and collected from the airport and taken shopping enroute to site), a caravan bought for him and also £200/day pay. I don't think that £1000 a week with the only cost machine wear and petrol is shabby at all. 

 

The other issue is that tonnage rate isn't often possible as we rarely work sites as easy as this one. The last one was a 2-month job on steep banking, 500t of it was ash thinnings with minimal sawlogs and 300t of it was oak with 50% sawlogs. 75% of the total timber was winched, and the ground conditions were poor. Dayrate cutting means consistency of income for the cutters, with me assuming the risk for production rates. My profit wasn't great on the ash thinning job, not at all, but my cutters still made the same. I make more from the current site, and my cutters still make the same dayrate. The chap from Central Scotland is coming down to work 2 weeks on, 1 week off from now on (but works 6 day weeks). That means that he's clearing an average of £3600/month, which I genuinely think is a good rate. 

[ESS]

33 minutes ago, Big J said:

eThat is fair enough. I am planning to increase my wages once the guys working for me have more experience working to my specs, have more tickets and are more independent of me in terms of accommodation. For instance, two chaps that came down from northern Scotland for work in January and February were each paid £200/day, but had accommodation pretty much onsite paid for them, as well as fuel money for driving down. A different chap from central Scotland who's on this site had half his flight money paid for (and collected from the airport and taken shopping enroute to site), a caravan bought for him and also £200/day pay. I don't think that £1000 a week with the only cost machine wear and petrol is shabby at all. 

 

The other issue is that tonnage rate isn't often possible as we rarely work sites as easy as this one. The last one was a 2-month job on steep banking, 500t of it was ash thinnings with minimal sawlogs and 300t of it was oak with 50% sawlogs. 75% of the total timber was winched, and the ground conditions were poor. Dayrate cutting means consistency of income for the cutters, with me assuming the risk for production rates. My profit wasn't great on the ash thinning job, not at all, but my cutters still made the same. I make more from the current site, and my cutters still make the same dayrate. The chap from Central Scotland is coming down to work 2 weeks on, 1 week off from now on (but works 6 day weeks). That means that he's clearing an average of £3600/month, which I genuinely think is a good rate. 

I happen to know the guy from Scotland that is on the current site, and would doubt he needs any guidance regarding specs.

The outcome of recent talks within the industry, and this was based on cutters producing their running costs was that cutters need to be on a minimum of £35/hr, I would agree with that as a minimum.  Would you have a problem with paying that if you say there is plenty of money available for everyone?

As I said earlier , a lot of machine ops are on £20 /hr plus benefits, yet cutters are expected to work for less in real terms. How does that work? 

I was with a contractor from your area a couple of weeks back who said contractors were screaming for cutters, its not just there, its a national issue and something that will need addressing before new blood can be encouraged into the industry.

In my opinion if an industry needs to import labour from various parts of the country to do the work the least they deserve in return is money that reflects their worth, a decent bed, decent food and decent working conditions, and be able to afford all that.

I have spent many years in the past in caravans, but I wont now. If a job cannot allow for the above then in my book its not a job,..other industries manage it, why should the timber trade be different?

 

 

 

[Big J]

18 minutes ago, ESS said:

I happen to know the guy from Scotland that is on the current site, and would doubt he needs any guidance regarding specs.

The outcome of recent talks within the industry, and this was based on cutters producing their running costs was that cutters need to be on a minimum of £35/hr, I would agree with that as a minimum.  Would you have a problem with paying that if you say there is plenty of money available for everyone?

As I said earlier , a lot of machine ops are on £20 /hr plus benefits, yet cutters are expected to work for less in real terms. How does that work? 

I was with a contractor from your area a couple of weeks back who said contractors were screaming for cutters, its not just there, its a national issue and something that will need addressing before new blood can be encouraged into the industry.

In my opinion if an industry needs to import labour from various parts of the country to do the work the least they deserve in return is money that reflects their worth, a decent bed, decent food and decent working conditions, and be able to afford all that.

I have spent many years in the past in caravans, but I wont now. If a job cannot allow for the above then in my book its not a job,..other industries manage it, why should the timber trade be different?

 

 

 

No, he's cutting extremely well and he doesn't need guidance. He has however been working with me off and on for 7 years, and we've got a very good understanding. You also have to think that if he's on site without transport and I'm collecting him from the airport, transporting him to site, buying him a caravan, fetching his gas bottles and taking him shopping for his food (as well as collecting fuel), then my costs are more than the £200/day I'm paying him. He is also working under my insurance.

 

I agree that wages need to go up overall and that there is a shortage of cutters. The issue is that the pricing of jobs hasn't yet caught up to that fact so it's not something that can be done overnight. £35/hr might be feasible for the top 1%, but most cutters aren't worth that. 

 

Personally, I'd much rather stay in a caravan on site than have to commute back and forth or use a B and B. 

 

The main issue is that most folk when they think of chainsaw work just jump straight into tree surgery. There is much more work and indeed money in hand cutting, but very few tree surgeons can do production felling to any standard. 

 

I think we agree in principle on a lot, but it still feels like you're having a go at me when I'm paying more than most, offering working conditions that are very good on sites that are interesting and varied. 

[The avantgardener]

You would be lucky to get £150-£200 a day hand cutting in Kent and Sussex, and that’s for experienced guys with all the tickets.

All the young guys want to go into Arb, better pay, most of the time easier than production cutting and you can collect loads of fancy gadgets and go-pro everything.

LANTRA run the bulk amount of chainsaw training in the UK, the last figures I heard was that 85% of those awarded certification intended to go into Arb.

I really don’t see many younger guys entering the Forestry sectors round these parts.