Free will or lack of.......

[onetruth]

1 minute ago, the village idiot said:

Yes, they could certainly play their part, introducing 'randomness' into the cause and effect chain. I still don't see how this translates to any kind of reprieve for free will.

Again, it seems you are trying to put Will into the cause and effect chain, and dismissing it because of the contradiction that (I agree) will inevitably arise.  Think of Will as the thing that removes the randomness - perhaps as the cause of those things that are outside of the cause-and-effect chain (lovely way of putting it, btw!).  I don't think Will is really like that, but if you allow for an interaction with that chain by things external to that chain, which you seem to, there must be the possibility of Will existing as one of these things.

[Vespasian]

Just now, the village idiot said:

Very interesting, but again, nothing there to support the free will argument.

Oh, I believe it does..  if the universe came into existence without need of a cause then not everything needs to have a cause to produce an effect...

 

The human mind might act in the same way, we imagine cause, but we can't know that..   Just as the universe has no cause, so to the thoughts we produce may as easily have no cause..   

[onetruth]

1 minute ago, Vespasian said:

Oh, I believe it does..  if the universe came into existence without need of a cause then not everything needs to have a cause to produce an effect...

 

The human mind might act in the same way, we imagine cause, but we can't know that..   Just as the universe has no cause, so to the thoughts we produce may as easily have no cause..   

Very good. What I was trying to say in my last post, but much more clearly put.

[the village idiot]

2 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

Oh, I believe it does..  if the universe came into existence without need of a cause then not everything needs to have a cause to produce an effect...

 

The human mind might act in the same way, we imagine cause, but we can't know that..   Just as the universe has no cause, so to the thoughts we produce may as easily have no cause..   

Yes indeed, but how in the blazers does thoughts having no cause give you free will?

[Vespasian]

4 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

Yes indeed, but how in the blazers does thoughts having no cause give you free will?

Well I'll think on that in the next hr, I've just had a thought...  if, I'm right.. then it answers another question thats been puzzling me for decades..  it proves the Universe had no cause...    well hints at it at least!!!

Edited January 6, 2018 by Vespasian

[WesD]

2 hours ago, onetruth said:

Consider hunger: you were hungry so you sought to satisfy the hunger, you have no control over the desire to satisfy the hunger. 

But you have a choice in what to eat. 

12 months ago I chose to stop eating meat, I’m not veggie by any stretch I still eat poultry and fish. That choice of input wasn’t automated. 

[WesD]

4 hours ago, the village idiot said:

You can bypass the subjective interpretation of your mind pretty effectively by turning to logic and good scientific evidence.

Logic and science are bread from the very minds we can’t trust. I feel you have lead yourself (in belief of course) down a one way street. 

[WesD]

25 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

Oh, I believe it does..  if the universe came into existence without need of a cause then not everything needs to have a cause to produce an effect...

 

The human mind might act in the same way, we imagine cause, but we can't know that..   Just as the universe has no cause, so to the thoughts we produce may as easily have no cause..   

So what or who produces a thought with no cause, surely if all thoughts are automatic they are reactionary to a cause?

[Mick Dempsey]

Not read a word of this, but would like to change the title to ‘free will or lack thereof’

 

Couldn’t stop myself.

[Vespasian]

28 minutes ago, WesD said:

So what or who produces a thought with no cause, surely if all thoughts are automatic they are reactionary to a cause?

No, thoughts can have no cause..   thought can just be.   no need for a cause...   which is not to say that all thoughts come out of thin air, but that they can....