Free will or lack of.......

[Vespasian]

1 hour ago, WesD said:

It’s not about reading it as that states your believing what your told so you’ll have no free will as your told you don’t. 

 

Its more how you feel as to what you believe. This is why I only used this thread as a guide to look within. Now I know what I believe I’ll start on the videos for both sides of the debate however I doubt it will change what I believe as I have my answers from soul searching not google and YouTube searching. 

You think I read somethin or watch somethin and think,,,Oh that sounds plausible that'll do me?...

 

No, I spent years ruminating on subjects like free will, well not so much on free will to be honest but on a loads of related subjects..  and it doesn't matter to me if I understand what free is or isn't.. I'll be going about my business much as I always have whether I look into it or not....

 

My own thoughts on life are much as Shakespeare's..all the worlds a stage and we each play our part..  I'm quite content to play my part in my own unfolding drama and all else be damned...

[the village idiot]

1 hour ago, skyhuck said:

In my experience people who are unsuccessful or unhappy with their lives are keen to look for reasons outside themselves for their lack of success. While those who do well KNOW that is generally down to shear hard work.

 

Many years ago a lad who was subbing to me, but also ran his own struggling firm, said to me "we are not all as lucky as you Dave" 

 

My reply was " its funny, the harder I've worked the luckier I've got" 

I thought this one might come up. 

 

To accept the no free will argument gives the ego a mighty kick in the gonads. It doesn't totally extinguish it because the illusion is so strong. In fact the ego remains totally in place even if you don't believe it exists. If you think the ego is causing problems, or you become aware that you are an arsehole you can take steps to chip through the illusion of self, and this is generally very beneficial.

 

WesD has only been meditating for a few 10 minute sessions, and has had the first insight that he is not in control of the next thought to pop into his conciousness. This can be a profoundly helpful realisation for anyone, but especially people who suffer from negative thinking. It is also the first nail in the coffin for the idea that we have free will.

 

You can probably appreciate what a hard sell this is. I am attempting to tell a group of hard working and proud tree surgeons that they had no input into getting to where they have got! I completely agree with you all that it seems undeniable that 'we' make 'our' own choices in life. The trouble is that when you break any choice down into small enough pieces it becomes clear that 'You' are nowhere to be found.

 

Your success is certainly down to your hard work, the confusing reality is that fundamentally, you didn't choose to work hard. The rewards from hard work would have fed back into your brain causing hard work to become a more predictable outcome, 'you' are merely enjoying the ride (hopefully).

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by the village idiot

[WesD]

1 hour ago, Vespasian said:

At least thats how I read it..

Hahum. 

[skyhuck]

18 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

I thought this one might come up. 

 

To accept the no free will argument gives the ego a mighty kick in the gonads. It doesn't totally extinguish it because the illusion is so strong. In fact the ego remains totally in place even if you don't believe it exists. If you think the ego is causing problems, or you become aware that you are an arsehole you can take steps to chip through the illusion of self, and this is generally very beneficial.

 

WesD has only been meditating for a few 10 minute sessions, and has had the first insight that he is not in control of the next thought to pop into his conciousness. This can be a profoundly helpful realisation for anyone, but especially people who suffer from negative thinking. It is also the first nail in the coffin for the idea that we have free will.

 

You can probably appreciate what a hard sell this is. I am attempting to tell a group of hard working and proud tree surgeons that they had no input into getting to where they have got! I completely agree with you all that it seems undeniable that 'we' make 'our' own choices in life. The trouble is that when you break any choice down into small enough pieces it becomes clear that 'You' are nowhere to be found.

 

 

Obviously I don't chose the thoughts that pop up, if I could that would IMO suggest some form of environmental control, which would be ridiculous. I can however and do decide which thoughts I ponder and which I dismiss.

 

I just don't believe what your trying to propagate.

 

We don't understand how the brain works, so why would we claim it to be autonomous?  "I think therefor I am" just because some are not happy with the thoughts they have does mean they are not theirs.

 

Sure I get occasional negative thoughts or worries, but I simply think through a plan of action if the worst should happen and then crack on, knowing planB is in place.

 

The thing about the choosing when to more your hand, our brains contain all the information we call upon to make our choice, the fact this information is pulled together before we review it sounds pretty sensible to me.

 

[tree-fancier123]

38 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

Not sure what your point is?

 

They got the bigger place because of hard work by the sounds to things. Are you saying they would have succeeded regardless?

I dont suppose I had a point really, just mentioned it as you stated hard work is the main ingredient for success. It struck me as a remarkable  story as I've never been a really hard worker - three hours sleep a night for six months, made me feel like I should pull my socks up a bit. I said to her I'll have to do a bit more I'm not running at full capacity - she replied ' yes you'll have to get your whip out'.

I dont think they would have beeen successful without all the hard work - but whether they chose to work hard of their own free will is another matter. Philosopher shoe gazers - most of them not got a pot to piss in

[Mortimer Firewood]

4 hours ago, skyhuck said:

I have read this thread and the other with interest and watched the various videos.

 

I have come to the conclusion that peoples experience of "consciousness" must vary greatly. It appears some have a problem that needs fixing, I don't feel this.

 

I'm from a strict religious family. I have realised that unlike them I have no god shaped hole in me or my life.

 

This to me feels like a substitute for religion, for people too smart to believe in god.

What are you referring to Mindfulness or free will.

 

As the first will better you I do not know one person who has tried it that does not get some benefit from it. 

The argument on free will is in my case tying to understand how we work. Gaining understanding is a good thing. 

 

Im somewhat stumped how you compare this to God? 

 

Mind you main stream physicsit’s are all starting to believe in creation!!   

[skyhuck]

7 hours ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

What are you referring to Mindfulness or free will.

 

As the first will better you I do not know one person who has tried it that does not get some benefit from it. 

The argument on free will is in my case tying to understand how we work. Gaining understanding is a good thing. 

 

Im somewhat stumped how you compare this to God? 

 

Mind you main stream physicsit’s are all starting to believe in creation!!   

Both really.

[skyhuck]

7 hours ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

 

As the first will better you I do not know one person who has tried it that does not get some benefit from it. 

The argument on free will is in my case tying to understand how we work. Gaining understanding is a good thing. 

 

 

I quick search on the net soon shows that a great many people have experience negatives from practicing "Mindfulness". I guess if you have a problem that its helping then its like taking drugs that may have side affects and is worth the risk, but if your happy and healthy is it worth the risk?

[skyhuck]

7 hours ago, Mortimer Firewood said:

 Im somewhat stumped how you compare this to God? 

 

Mind you main stream physicsit’s are all starting to believe in creation!!   

Basically instead of an unseen god pulling the strings, there is this brain over which you have no control. It can be a way of shedding personal responsibility. IMO.

 

As for "all" mainstream physicists starting to believe in creation, I simply don't believe that. Do you have any evidence for this remarkable claim?

[Mortimer Firewood]

1 hour ago, skyhuck said:

I quick search on the net soon shows that a great many people have experience negatives from practicing "Mindfulness". I guess if you have a problem that its helping then its like taking drugs that may have side affects and is worth the risk, but if your happy and healthy is it worth the risk?

 

1 hour ago, skyhuck said:

Basically instead of an unseen god pulling the strings, there is this brain over which you have no control. It can be a way of shedding personal responsibility. IMO.

 

As for "all" mainstream physicists starting to believe in creation, I simply don't believe that. Do you have any evidence for this remarkable claim?

You managed to find info on the negatives of mindfulness I’m sure you can find the rest out. 

 

Have you tried Mindfulness Huck it can help people that are Judgmental, Egotistical, Narcissistic, Narrow minded or have Anger issues. I suppose you have to see thesa traits before acting on them.