student quality

[defenderjack]

If colleges had better selection processes, you would have smaller numbers enrolled, better staff to student ratios, more practical experience and better trained people coming out the other end. This would mean that the qualification you earned, would be more respected in the industry.

What has happened is that higher education has become an industry in itself. Colleges accept as many students as they can on all kinds of mickey mouse courses, dog & cat grooming etc, to get as much money as they can. This means that those students lose out, who are really committed to getting the qualification and learning as much as they can that will be of use to them when they are in tree work for real.

 

my partners a proffesional dog groomer and does very well at , !!!!!! its just as much a skill as any other trade ! :001_smile:just my 2 pence worth!

[Alex Reid]

as a student who has been in the industry for nearly three years, and just over halfway through my ND i think you have hit the nail on the head there Matt.

 

all i can add to that is that you get out as much as you put in, and anyone can just achieve a pass in college by just coasting and caring about their career, but if you put more in and try harder and do the merit and distinction tasks i think you will come out with quite a good understanding of arboriculture

 

I can see what you mean about the better unstanding of arb but as for merits and distinctions the dont mean everthing! I have a distinction* in engineering but that doesnt mean i am any better than someone with a merit when it comes to actually using a centre lathe for example it just means that u had a better understanding of the paper side of the course.

 

Now i myself is on a ND in arb and i'll be honest not all of my assignments are distinction standard but that doesnt mean i cant use a chainsaw in a tree or climb just as well if not better that someone else who has solid distinctions all the way through. There are a few who would be classic examples of this on my course. As for the weather and such like other things there aint nothing better than getting up to ur waist in mud when you look at ur mate and cant stop laughing

[Jon Lad]

my partners a proffesional dog groomer and does very well at , !!!!!! its just as much a skill as any other trade ! :001_smile:just my 2 pence worth!

 

I wasn't saying that it doesn't need as much as any other trade, I'm sure it's highly skilled. Just that alot of colleges that were traditionally strong on arb have started alot of courses which require alot less staff; equipment; organization etc at the expense of arboricultural courses which do.

[nepia]

Maybe it should be compulsory for students to have at least 12 months industry experience with proof before they are allowed on an academic course ? that statement itself opens up a whole new debate..................

 

 

That was the case in agriculture when I was in it; don't know if it still applies. It was down to me to find a farm that would take me as a raw novice in the knowledge that I'd leave after a year. Why would they do that? Because I was cheap. You start at the bottom. If the same applied in arb I wonder how many of next week's class of 20 would appear if they were told 'go and work for a year; see you then'.

[Andy Clark]

I have been in the industry for 36 years and have just completed my first year teaching arb both practically and academically.

How do any of you contractors feel about the quality of the students that are coming into the industry? Do you feel there is an issue with their work ethic? Do you think they are prepared enough for the workplace?

What about you young guys/girls who have just completed an NC/ND, how relevant was your time at college to actually working in industry?

If you have issues, what would you like to see changed??

 

It seems that lots of different colleges, teach lots of different ways..... two colleges that spring to mind are Myerscough and Capel Manor; both highly aclaimed for the positive steps they take to align the subjects taught, with benefiting the industry. Hats off to both of them.

 

But my experience of teaching Arb at a much smaller local college was unfortunately less admirable.......

 

I taught the Arb based units within the First Dip Hort, NDHort (Arb), NCHort (Arb), and C&G Phase II....... managed to stomach it for one term! For me, i had become part of something that was both watering down the skills within industry, and was building students up for a massive fall.

 

 

Things like......

 

The powers that be, expecting students to climb on 9 year old climbing harnesses. I tried to condemn them under LOLER, only to be told by my head of dept. that i could not destroy them, as he was to take them and sell them at a local auction house.

 

The college grounds coming under a Conservation Are notice, so any tree climbing practical sessions had to be carried out off campus. Funding was scarce, so the opportunities to actually get off campus and climb, were minimal.

 

My predecesor teaching nothing but comp. climbing, so my 2nd year students may have been great at footlocking or throwbag techniques, but had no idea of any practical work skills. No understanding of crown shape/balance, work positioning etc.

 

A library containing a grand total of approx 12-15 Arb related book$s. Most of which were out-dated Woodland management or forestry type content. Again, minimal funding for ever getting up to date or relevant material.

 

Student-Teacher ratios well above the recommended size in terms of safety. I believe 1:8 is the recommended ratio for practical sessions...... i had well in excess of 1:15.... sometimes 1:20.

 

1 ms200t, and 5 (maybe 6) groundsaws. None of which were of a profesional quality. (Makita hobby-saws)

 

Being told to "grade high" on course work, and focus on student retention, in order to reflect good for the govt. funding per head. Often passing work, that my 8 year old son would've put to shame.

 

The list goes on........

 

 

 

Needless to say, after i left, the college went on to score a 4 out of 5 in its next OFSTED inspection....... 5 being that the college would've been shut down! For me, that just afforded me with a big, fat "I told you so".

 

 

All these things, and more, just shouldn't be happening!

As an example of a way forward, Colleges have the ability to teach "secondary learning goals". Why not use them to teach the NPTC certs, thereby only ever turning out students who are fully equipped to enter the work place?

 

Why? Because it's too much about the "bums on seats", not enough about the "ethics" of teaching.

[Barney]

It would be good if colleges touched on things like, dragging, stacking hedge cutting and efficient clearing up as thats what most college leavers do for the first year.

[mattylee]

im still a great believer that doing a apprentaship - 'excuse the spelling', is the best way of learning the trade, i worked with the boys hands on while doing a short course every 4 months or so to collect the required tickets, this way i knew what to expect and that with it comes hard work and some right s****y jobs at times.

 

i think far too many colleges train people in textbook perfect situations and leave out realistic ones. i.e - working in ivy covered trees, large hedge reductions and dam right awkward horrible climbs

[JaySmith]

im still a great believer that doing a apprentaship - 'excuse the spelling', is the best way of learning the trade, i worked with the boys hands on while doing a short course every 4 months or so to collect the required tickets, this way i knew what to expect and that with it comes hard work and some right s****y jobs at times.

 

i think far too many colleges train people in textbook perfect situations and leave out realistic ones. i.e - working in ivy covered trees, large hedge reductions and dam right awkward horrible climbs

 

Agree with that, I am doing an apprenticeship at Epping, only four weeks into it and they already have us using the Valtra's, long arm grab and chipper, forwarder's, firewood processor's etc, probably wouldn't have got to do this in such a short space of time at college!

 

A mate of mine did an 'intensive plumbing course' which is fine in the workshop as everything is laid out square and nice and neat and tidy but as you are let loose on the public and round to an old house with rickerty pipe work things look a little different - the same with tree work in a way I suppose.