Youngstu

But from what I've seen we don't actually seem to know when he returned from his boot licking trip to Texas. It may be hypocritical to criticise a divisive politician whilst not criticising protesting members of the public but you wouldn't expect any more. I'd imagine that Farage would be critical of the BLM protestors for not following social distancing and putting the health of the country at risk whilst supporting the defenders of statues and the great british public crowding onto already full beaches as it supports his cause. It's the way it is and someone like Farage will always be a target for criticism (like most politicians and public figures).

And if Farage is stupid enough to get himself spotted in another country with a major Covid issue, then fail to follow the required quarantine on his return home so he could have his favourite pub based photo opportunity he can't exactly be surprised to have been "grassed up" by political opponents amongst many others. And deny having broken the rules when the available evidence shows that he did. If he didn't fair enough, but if he did, testing or not he should have the same consequences as anyone else (fine, slap on the wrist or whatever that may be).

How many years of motorbike and car accidents gave us those necessary statistics to make the decision to put helmets and seatbelts into law (I'd bet there were a fair few objections to this change at the time too, did they get through on the first attempts even with the evidence for their importance?!) We have 6 months of this virus now, loads of deaths and much worse in some countries than others (the UK is doing particularly badly in this respect and we haven't mandated the use of masks in shops etc where others have). It seems that there is a lot of advice from the scientists, doctors, medical advisers, virologists etc over here and in other countries that wearing masks in places where social distancing is difficult to maintain is a very good idea and will go some way to reducing the further spread of Covid 19. By wearing masks more, maybe the restrictions can be eased further as risks are further reduced! I don't necessarily agree with maintaining the lockdown as it does have a really negative effect on many in our society, but opening up travel, pubs, restaurants etc all on one day does seem like a bit of risky strategy. The british public don't generally do a good job of following the common sense that's expected from them. With a wet and windy "Super Saturday" is this going to make it better or worse. Not too fond of following the rules, especially when plucked out of thin air by this current bunch of incompetents and as they change their minds every 25 seconds you can't expect the instructions to remain from one week to the next.

Masks in shops, in England we don't currently have to but if we do then so be it, the government's done a fine job of cocking it all up so far, so a few sticking plasters are a bit late but wouldn't go amiss really to try and reduce further spread now we're 24 hours away from Boris's free for all, good luck reopening. How did you feel about being forced to wear a seatbelt or motorbike helmet, was that also a removal of your freedoms and rights? What about if they decided cyclists had to wear helmets. Lots choose to anyway after seeing what can happen if you don't, to protect themselves and/or save others from having to pick up the pieces after a crash. At least we can live in hope that compulsory mask wearing is likely to be a temporary measure to help people to protect themselves and others. Helmets and seatbelts don't save everyone from the effect of a crash but go some way towards it. If you look at it like masks really, or safety glasses, or ear defenders, or chainsaw gloves, or airbags, or age restrictions on selling knives) fireworks/ alcohol or .....

Sometimes it does seem that the Governments want to take more control, but not convinced this is one of them. Maybe they should have said to wear masks in shops the whole time, but they didn't and with the lack of PPE at the early stages that's possibly understandably. For the last few months we've been told not to go to shops unnecessarily and to maintain a 2m social distance at all times, wearing a mask at this point probably wouldn't achieve much more and the shops were much more empty. Now with shops getting busier and people doing less social distancing maybe this is the right time to enforce mask wearing in shops and other enclosed public spaces. The virus hasn't actually gone away (see USA) but with people travelling widely there is again more opportunity to spread it about.

Looks like I missed something in my message so you got yourself a bit confused, I'll give you an example to help you understand. Racism was once acceptable in general but some people including the victims and others objected to it, but many, including those in power didn't "give a toss" about the thoughts, feelings or sensitivities of the victims or the others that felt it was wrong. Over time petitions, demonstrations, reports etc raised awareness and increased the support for victims of racism and made that behaviour generally unacceptable and eventually laws were made protecting people from that behaviour. If it wasn't for the ongoing persistence of these "sensitive" types those practices would still be widely acceptable and the victims would be suffering from much greater levels of blatant racism in society. This applies to sexism, homophobia, disability discrimination etc and unfortunately none of them have gone away, they're just less blatant than they were in the past. Is being old or from a certain demographic an acceptable excuse for being racist or sexist or homophobic?

And if everyone who believed that legalised racism, homophobia, slavery, sexual discrimination , disability discrimination etc took that attitude, rather than working to change the attitudes of others that "don't give a toss" and in doing so increase the momentum of positive change by sheer volume of numbers pushing against the old ways change would never come. Old ways and traditional behaviour stick around unless people push to change the minds of others.

Thought this'd fit in well here!? "Everyone's too sensitive these days" is literally code for 'I wish I could be racist, homophobic, ableist, sexist etc without getting called out for it.'

It'd be interesting to read some undisputable facts about what these individuals are actually doing to swing other people's opinions. There was a very interesting programme about how Soros has become a bogeyman for the right and receiving the "credit" for lots that he and his organisations have nothing to do with, also lots of anti-Semitic issues around this. Assuming that they are doing things to influence voters etc, how is it different to or is it any worse than the involvement of Cambridge Analytica in the vote leave and trump campaigns? both of which may not have won without their data harvesting and targeted advertising tactics. There's lots of dubious information on both sides and plenty of conspiracy theories to add to the genuinely possible options.

Most Muslims go to a mosque for religious purposes. The football lads alliance, Tommy Robinson's supporters went to these demonstrations for a scrap (and to get pissed up with other right wing thugs. Some undoubtedly went to peacefully defend the already covered statues from people that had said they weren't coming anymore, but they probably weren't getting tanked up, fighting with the police or pissing where they shouldn't. Unfortunately as soon as it was announced that "proud, patriotic Englishmen" we're going to protect the statues, it was inevitable that this would happen.

I'm sure that this is absolutely true and an important point, but the same thing can be said about the anti racism protests over the last couple of weeks. Far more news coverage has been devoted to the violence and vandalism of the few rather than the overwhelming majority who were peacefully protesting. Obviously I don't have figures but by the look of it a very significant proportion of these "monument protectors" turned up looking for trouble and a fight,with BLM protestors or anyone else that they didn't like the look of.

When those on the left think the BBC is too far on the right and those on the right think it's too far on the left, maybe they're doing what they're supposed to be?! I'm not convinced myself as they give far too much credence to the conservative government and UKIP etc in the past, but that might be because I don't like what they're saying.

And we and our governments, the UN etc should be stamping up and down and making a fuss about both of these examples, imposing sanctions etc, but should we really be involved with trying to directly change the powers to ones of our liking? Does it ever really work? These countries came into being after the British left, but are these problems because we left or did the British being there in the first place contribute to the tensions and issues that have lead to these problems? Do you think the British should have stayed in power in India and not returned power to the people of the subcontinent?

Absolutely! I assume Pakistan was chosen as an example of a failed state as it follows its own path and it's not always in line with what Western powers would like. For some countries, the wars and mistreatment that lead to their formation or are key parts of their history are often scars that run deep and often influence how they are run and what their ambitions are for their future, and for some this includes taking back what they believe is rightfully theirs.

This certainly should be the case all other things being equal, but the current global protests are in response to the fact that unfortunately it doesn't always work this way, as getting the same opportunities isn't always possible for people from different backgrounds for many reasons and "race" can be very influential on the opportunities available. which politicians should be doing this, those of the countries in question or politicians of "successful" countries? In recent years the attempted changing of politicians by western powers doesn't seem to have had a particularly successful outcome. Some really nasty dictators are now gone but the countries are still in chaos. What has caused Pakistan and similar countries to be a "failed state"? If it's their culture, what has caused that culture to develop in that way? My thinking is that the culture of many of these countries is massively influenced by their history and for a lot of them it is a colonial history, which unfortunately involved the colonial powers taking everything they could from their colonies and transferring the resources and wealth back to Europe. Many of the countries did make some gains in term of development, but I doubt that many benefited in terms of wealth as when the colonisers went the wealth generated went with them.

So you're saying that this country is free from racism and discrimination!? And if I remember correctly it was you that lives in the countryside and doesn't see any there? Living and working in a rural area and working with lots of "Joe average white working class male" over the years, I'm very well aware of how hard a time some have with it all and nobody here is saying that any particular group doesn't have it hard, but I'm also very aware of the racism and discrimination that exists in this part of society, especially where society is far from diverse. I think it's also reasonable to say that you don't know any more about what I think, do or have done other than my responses on this topic. Some others make their opinions very clear on a regular basis!

not at all, but maybe show some understanding about why others wish to support those fighting against racism and discrimination that is entrenched in our society.

I understand what you're saying and the points you've made. Due to the opinions often expressed on here and treatment of those with more liberal view I rarely post but felt that today some opinions and statements needed to be challenged. I didn't expect my point of view to be agreed with by some, but have to admit to being quite shocked by the responses and the venom directed towards those with different opinions, which is probably why you see much less in the way of a liberal point of view on these forums.

Where are these accusations towards you and the white population and where have I made broad sweeping statements that would be classed as racist in another context? I'm just curious and have read back through my comments and can't find anything that would fit into either of those categories.

If you read what I've written I don't think I've attacked any white people and I haven't accused you of being racist. As far as I'm aware I'm not in the "hate filled individuals" category either. The anger that you're displaying (which is in response to reactions to your original comment) shows that the hate is coming from your direction not mine. I know that on previous threads you claim to read information from all sides but it certainly seems that your views on this topic are very fixed and you seem completely unable to see how and why others may think differently and still be reasonable people.

Not a fan of people with opinions that are different to your own then it seems!

And for thousands of years our ancestors and those of other groups of people in the world would have been regarded as "uncivilised", killing one another left right and centre, mistreating or exploiting their enemies along with their own countrymen and families if they were not deemed to be worth treating well. If we were to consider ourselves to be a civilised and just country at this time (and possibly for the last century give or take a few wars, war crimes etc), is it not important to recognise the wrongs that were committed by the people who came before us which lead to our country becoming rich, powerful and "civilised" at the expense of other nations and their citizens. Many of our towns, cities and people still benefit from the profits made at the expense of those who were exploited, whether that's through our public buildings, universities, parks and other things that benefit the general population. I understand that you don't feel that you would want to apologise for something that wasn't your fault and many people don't wish to do so, but do you have no empathy or understanding of why there are many in our society who still feel the pain of what happened to their ancestors, how that has effected them and others within their social grouping due to the treatment that has continued up until now? Do you also seriously think it's unreasonable for others in our society to wish to stand alongside and support those who have been wronged through exploitation and discrimination over generations? If it wasn't for the British (and several other European nations) exploiting their colonies we would not have been able to maintain our position in the world. Surely we should help and support those (countries, people) who were exploited for our benefit.

So, to those who have expressed such horror at these protests: if the protests had remained entirely peaceful, without any violence and disorder, resulting in injuries or vandalism ( which unfortunately were inevitable when the reason for the protests causes such strong feelings in many!) Would you have supported the cause? If not, why not. Do you not believe that racism is a problem in this country? If that's the case are those involved making it up? Do we as a country not need to recognise the wrongs that have been committed by our countrymen in the past and do something to right those wrongs? I don't believe that the writing from a doctor said anything about the virus being racist, it just stated well known facts about how if affects BAME people disproportionately. If you can address these points without referring to those as "disgusting", "animals" or "scum" that'd be great as those terms in this context wouldn't be out of place in the 1960s, or even 1860s. On a couple of other points: Something being worse elsewhere doesn't make it ok here and maybe as a country that has been "developed" for longer than many we should lead by example in improving conditions and treatment of members of our society. It is possible to be proud of your country and patriotic whilst criticising what has happened in the past or is happening still. The use of the term "All lives matter" is completely ridiculous and inappropriate, there are plenty of statements, videos and cartoons explaining why. "Coloured on coloured" demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge of what terms are considered completely unacceptable at this time due to their association with a more racist past, segregation etc. And I agree that the caste system is extremely unfair, should be dismantled, but is this racism and as I said before saying that is worse doesn't make our problems ok. Progress was made with the abolition of the slave trade, outlawing slavery in the USA and the colonies, civil rights changes in the 60s, banning of racial discrimination, making racism a crime etc but all is not ok and our society is not fair for everyone, particularly people of colour.

I can't say that your response surprises me, but the venom of it does, directed towards an opinion that is different to yours is pretty extreme to put it mildly. Do you not think that those attended did so "in the knowledge that they themselves are responsible if they catch C-19." If you seriously believe that this cause has no relevance in the UK, there are a lot of people who strongly disagree with you, many having been subjected to or witnessed the reasons for these protests. You should probably read this statement below, not that I think it'll make much difference to your opinion but maybe your newsfeeds don't include this type of opinion normally?! "As a doctor who has worked in covid wards for the last 3 months - I support these protests and the BLM movement wholeheartedly. Anyone who works for the NHS should do the same. I am sick to death of people who don’t even work for the NHS using us as a reason to disagree with the protest. No. Don’t you dare. “Think of the NHS workers” is not your get out of jail free card to express your deep rooted racism. And yes, protesting and mass gatherings are not ideal during a pandemic. But this cannot wait. It has already gone on long enough. The racism, hardships and countless deaths that black people have faced have gone on far longer than covid - and if you are using the virus as an excuse to rebuke the protesters and the BLM movement, you are part of the problem. Black people are 4 times more likely to die from covid. They know this. You know this. Yet they are still willing to risk their lives and go out and protest. Have you even bothered to think about why? It is because they know that racism is far more deadly than covid. And it’s about time you realised the same. Where was your outrage when people were flocking to beaches to tan? Where was your outrage when people had VE Day parties and didn’t social distance? No one will blame these events for a second wave - which was already coming before this protest. These protesters wore face masks and social distanced the best they could but that is not enough. Some of you would rather see them stay at home. Some of you have forgotten your outrage at the murder of George Floyd already and have now focused your outrage on black people again. And you don’t even see that as a problem. This is how deep rooted your (and my) privilege is. And it needs to stop now."

Or from the alternative point of view ... If all the "retards" take their families to the beach, congregating in their thousands, arse to elbows "sunbathing" and do not face dispersal or repercussions then people fighting for a cause that needs fighting for can protest in the towns and cities around the world!