ROG.

I studied this so called change and the only thing I can see that affects all drivers new or old is the towing of trailers over 3500 MAM As those trailers come under different rules - like air brakes fo example - then I hardly think it is going to affect anyone The wording has left out the usual 3500 kgs MAM and just says 3500 kgs but that is just an omission and not a change in the law - typical DVLA not making sure it reads as it should!! Again, no mention of the B towing rule where the plated MAM of a trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle - another omission but no change in the law. Why the DVLA could not just have mentioned the changes for trailers over 3500 is beyond me.....

Are you 100% certain of that because a home made trailer does not need either to be legal on the road ?

The weights for the transit will be on the V5 form, in the handbook or on a plate attached to the vehicle If the chipper does not have a plate then what are the tyre load ratings ? Without this info your question cannot be answered

Give me this info and I'll tell you for certain Licence B or B+E ? Transit Unladen weight ? GVW ? GTW ? Towing capacity ? - not usually one for a transit Chipper Is that 2000 kg the actual and/or plated MAM weight ?

Providing it is all secure then its perfectly safe and legal Think about the LGV wagon and drag set up where the drag/trailer uses an A frame A set up like that is great fun to reverse because it has two pivot points so ends up being reversed as a rigid would be !!

Although I do not mind answering PMs on towing issues it would be to everyones benefit to have the Q&As in the open for two main reasons 1 - I am not infallible so others can correct any unintentional mess ups or answer aspects to which I have no knowledge 2 - other members might want to ask the same thing and seeing it already answered will same them the trouble

Yes it does which is why an overall definitive cannot be given Each case must be determined on its own merits Some cases are straight forward and an answer can be given now but as you say, others have so many other little bits which need considering and seem to fall in areas of the legislation which need defining

A little more on GTW, GVW & MAM on a combination set up As the GTW, GVW & MAM weight rules are exactly the same for LGVs as they are for B category vehicles then this might help to understand the using of the GTW 3 axle LGV rigid GVW 26000 and GTW of 44000 3 axle Drawbar trailer MAM 25000 The rigid weighs 10000 unladen The Drawbar trailer weighs 8000 unladen the driver has a 26000 load to distribute between the two but due to the nature of the load it means that only 10000 can go onto the vehicle After loading the vehicle now weighs 20000 and the trailer weighs 24000 All perfectly legal but as the vehicle nows weighs less than the trailer more driving care is needed but that is not too much of a problem as the designers have accounted for that - if the designers thought it was unsafe they would impose a maximum towing capacity (actual weight) for the vehicle That is why these days we find many 4x4s with a towing capacity well over the maximum vehicle GVW - they are designed for it

Perhaps another exempt example might help - Builder load up his 10 tonne truck at the yard with bricks etc He goes to the site where he uses the material he loaded in the truck He loads rubble from the site and drives back to the yard where he offloads it So far he is exempt dcpc Now he decides to load up all the rubble and take it to a landfill site He now requires dcpc There could be an allowed exemption if that landfill run was done say once a month and the distance was short but that would need a call to the DSA driver cpc hotline 0191 201 8112 to find out and then I would insist on the answer in writing if it was deemed exempt

Operator CPC is not really my bag but from what I heard the new rules introduced last year are causing some confusion No seperate national & international operator cpc now - its all in one The 1020 kgs unladen trailer rule is now different for full and restricted O licences If that is right then they sure like to mess around with things so as to confuse everyone!!

NO But if anything was done such as deliveries to customers then it would be needed

It can but only if the ADR course is also driver cpc approved 21 hours for the basic 3.5 day course Another 7 hours for the tanks module but not many dcpc/adr providers have that

Unless a maximum towing capacity has been listed then the GTW can be utilised as the driver sees fit as long as the vehicle GVW and the trailer MAM are not exceeded Example:- no towing capacity listed Vehicle GVW = 3500 GTW = 6000 Trailer MAM = 3500 When loaded these actual weights would be legal if weighed on a weighbridge Vehicle 3500 + trailer 2500 Vehicle 3000 + trailer 3000 vehicle 2500 + trailer 3500 - not the best idea this one but legal

TACHO RULES If anyone has any queries on the EU or domestic driver regulations please feel free to ask. As the rules are so many then here they are in downloadable PDF forms EU REGS NEW VOSA GUIDE GV262-03 Hope I can be of help

DRIVER CPC (DCPC) info for those that may need it It seems some on here may need the newish (Sept 2009) driver cpc to continue driving LGVs commercially after 09/09/2014 so I thought you might like to know the rules. The driving licence and the DCPC are totally separate issues so not having the DCPC does not mean a loss of the licence – it means that the licence cannot be used to drive LGVs commercially. The Operator CPC and the Driver CPC are separate issues and one cannot be used towards the other unless those doing an Operator CPC course have that course DCPC approved for X amount of DCPC hours. The DCPC will be required for almost every commercial LGV driver (drivers of vehicles over 3.5 tonnes GVW) but there are some exceptions. Vehicles under 3.5 tonnes using a trailer which takes them over 3.5 tonnes combined weight do not come under DCPC but may come under EU tacho regs and/or ‘O’ licence regs. When this was first introduced I made an in depth study into all aspects of it from the INITIAL DCPC to the PERIODIC DCPC. The INITIAL DCPC is for those who want to drive LGVs commercially and did not have any LGV entitlement on their licence on 10/09/2009. Pre 1997 car licence holders did have LGV C1 so are exempt from taking the INITIAL DCPC. I will not expand further on this unless specifically asked to. The PERIODIC DCPC is the one which will affect the majority for the whole of their commercial LGV driving careers because it is an ongoing requirement. After 09/09/2014 every commercial LGV driver will be required by LAW to carry a DQC (driver cpc card) at all times when driving LGVs commercially unless they fit into an exemption. Until 09/09/2014 those who had any LGV category on 10/09/2009 will have acquired/grandfather rights and also have a ‘GHOST’ DQC (driver cpc card) The 35 hours is not 7 hours per year in the UK but is 35 hours within a 5 year period. When all 35 hours are completed AT ANY TIME during the 5 years the driver gets a new DQC (driver cpc card) dated 5 years from the end of the current one or in the case of those with acquired/grandfather rights it will be 5 years from 09/09/2014 making an expiry date of 09/09/2019. There are no tests or exams to be passed – each course just requires the attendance of the driver along with their driving licence. The legal responsibility to get the 35 hours of DCPC falls on the driver and not the employer which is why so many LGV (and PCV) drivers are opposed to this. The DCPC cannot be scrapped by the UK Govt as it is EU law so would require many EU states to make changes but in saying that, the UK Govt do have flexibility as to HOW it is implemented in the UK. The 35 hours are usually done in blocks of 7 hours but can be split into 3.5 hours blocks as long as 2 X 3.5 hours blocks are done within a 24 hour period. That 24 hour period is often relaxed a little and allowed to be over 2 days. A simple exemption from DCPC could be this:- A driver goes to the job, spends all day cutting down trees, loads them and then drives back to a place where they offload them. The driver has only used the LGV for a very short part of the shift as a tool to move the wood so that does not make driving the main part of their job. If that same driver was to then make a short distance delivery to a customer then they would not be exempt as that would be delivering goods. The DSA set up (a Quango?) called JAUPT to oversee the PERIODIC (not initial) DCPC. Virtually anyone can set up as a DCPC provider but it means paying JAUPT money to be one (renewed every 5 years) and for each approved course (renewed every year). An approved DCPC trainer must work for an approved DCPC provider so the hours done by drivers can be counted and uploaded to the DVLA database. A certificate of attendance should also be provided by the provider. A driver may check on what DCPC hours are already on the DVLA database Send an e-mail to [email protected] or call 0191 201 8112 (DSA DCPC hotline) Include; A request for a statement of periodic training to be posted to your home address Name Date of Birth Driver licence number Home address Unless a DCPC approved course is also under the remit of another approving body (ADR by SQA for example) then, providing it fits in with the general JAUPT criteria, it will be approved but the accuracy of the contents of that course will not be checked upon! Any person can be a DCPC trainer with something as simple as a letter from a current or former employer stating that they are competent in subject matter. There are literally hundreds of DCPC courses to choose from so if a provider states they have 5 X 7 hours modules that is not what is required. A driver can take the same 7 hour course 5 times to gain 35 hours. About 50% of drivers are getting the DCPC done in-house by their employers but for the rest it means they have to find courses and cough up the dough themselves. Many of those that must pay themselves are simply opting for the cheapest no matter what that course is and who can blame them. Time spent on a DCPC course cannot be counted as daily or weekly rest for the EU driver regulations because it is not a voluntary set of training hours. It must be recorded as ‘other work’ There are a few officials getting mixed up over this but the law is clear on this issue even though it is implied and not stated – typical law makers not putting things into plain language! Surprisingly, perhaps not as this is an EU thing, driving is not a compulsory part of the DCPC although there are some very expensive courses which do have a driving element such as the SAFED course The introduction of the DCPC resulted in a change in the law for LGV driver licence ages. ALL LGV categories are now at age 18. I think that has covered all the relevant aspects of the DCPC but feel free to ask me anything I have not covered or made clear.

If anyone wishes me to determine whether they are legal or not then please inform me of the following in kgs:- 1 - Licence - B or B+E 2 - Unladen/empty/kerb weight of the towing vehicle 3 - GVW of the towing vehicle 4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle 5 - GTW if listed 6 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating + number of tyres 7 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer

Hi all, my first post and the first of three, hopefully useful, ones Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained I have extensive knowledge on this issue and already have a trailer towing clinic HERE Trailer MAM means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load) Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM. A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs. Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form. Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites. Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights. Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight. None of the above weights must be exceeded Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together FOR B+E LICENCES Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:- CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800 TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000 The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800 Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden EXAMPLE: - VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000 TRAILER has MAM of 3500 The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal FOR B LICENCES The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence - To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:- Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle? Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs? Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity? Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found.... Towing vehicle - Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500 GVW = 2000 Towing capacity = 1800 Trailer - Unladen/empty = 800 MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing) Load trailer with 700 max Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence - The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500 The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800 SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test. They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner. The usual rules apply when a learner is driving - The supervising driver must be aged over 21 The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer Correct insurance for a B+E learner Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules