Albedo

Another afterthought... Wood, air dried outside undercover, in this country achieves around 20% moisture content (I believe there is some consensus here on arbtalk about this figure) so the maths in the above examples may have to be adjusted accordingly. I'm sure someone's phoned you up and sold you some wood by now anyway:001_smile: Also on these quantities it may be worth investing in a moisture meter - about 20 quid from amazon. Then there is price...........lets save that one for the experts:sneaky2:

You will also need to specify whether you want your wood cut and split and ready to go or whether you intend to process it yourself from uncut lengths. As I say, it can get quite complex, hence all the previous requests for a bit more info.

The poster wants 10 tonnes of firewood. My guess is he may be a domestic customer who wants enough wood to get thru a hard winter, so he may not know the lingo. My advice to the original poster is as follows. The firewood men tend to deal in volume rather than weight as wood can be 50% water when fresh cut. So the weight of unseasoned wood can be double what it would be when dried out or seasoned. They also don’t tend to have access to weigh bridges and have diferent sized vehicles, trailers etc. You may have in mind the quantity you need. If for example you want it seasoned, then you may have in mind a quantity of about 10 cubic metres (which wont weigh ten ton, perhaps half this weight). If you want it unseasoned, then ten cubic metres of hardwood may come somewhere near to ten tonnes So you need to think of whether it is seasoned or unseasoned that you require and then try to give an idea of the amount you need by volume. As a very rough guide, ten builders bags of the type that builders yards deliver sand in are roughly a cubic metre (or a bit less) so you may require a quantity of wood, roughly equivalent to 20 builder bags seasoned or 10 builder bags unseasoned to get 10 tonnes. The subject can be quite complex but I hope this will help you to specify more accurately what you need. Please feel free to ask more questions for clarification as I usually make mistakes in my maths and am not a firewood dealer but you get the idea.

Just to clarify. I agree with all the comments made about chainsaw safety. Although some may disagree with my use of the 200t on the ground. I meant I didnt understand or care about the regulatory consequences so didn't want to promote others to break that reg without them checking it. I do care deeply about safety and I believe that every time you start a saw you should be as careful as you were the first time. I can see how you read my comment Matty F and were rightly shocked. Hopefully I have explained what I meant. Hopefully we can agree to differ regarding this reg without the need for personal insult. Best Regards.

The orange shoulder panels etc would be specked by the arb brand working with the outdoor brand and nothing would be stolen in terms of design. The only way to find out would be to ask jonesie and clarks if they know who makes them. My point being that the arb brand could be the same quality as the outdoor brand, with the help of the outdoor brand. It would be a business transaction. Mine, is of course hand woven from lentils, by elves (paid top dollar)

Are you concerned about the regulations? i.e. no use of 200t on the ground. Why spend loads of money on another saw when youv'e got one that will do? I disagree with this reg and use the 200t on the ground all the time. I believe its safer around the chipper for snedding, due to working at close quarters with others. I also believe that if I can cut a small branch up a tree dangling from a rope, I can cut a branch on the ground. I would never double up on that saw just to satisfy a regulation that is (IMO) wrong. Not sure if this opinion is helpful to you at all but just wondered. I would defy this regulation as a protest, but I don't know or really care what the consequences might be.

Have you considered AD that the arb jacket brands may have an outdoor brand do the design and manufacture of the jacket and then just stick an arb label on it. Isn’t this common practice? So the arb ones could be made by the same exploited Asian sweatshop workers as the outdoor brand ones. I know this is an issue with high street brands and sportswear, but don’t know for the big outdoor brands, just assuming it’s the same. In an ideal world the exploitation factor would be as important a consideration as price, quality and brand. Although this is not your fault AD as far as I know:001_smile:

In the old days tree work was a kind of rebel occupation in some ways. People come in from the forces, but also environmentalists and hippies. We hippy element don’t like all your shiny things consumerist view of the job and we don’t like your H&S stuff either. I’d climb on three strand hemp for ever, my way, and the way that Hama has described, with your route around the tree being the most important thing, not the money you spend on stuff. You can keep your heroes wherever, you want to put them, but us oldies and the next generation of younger ones will just do the job without the need for the pat on the back that you are looking for.

peanuts.

I sell shrooms like this for about 20 quid. A log worth little as firewood becomes a nice bottle of wine. Sorted:biggrin: The one on the right would be more as its been seasoned, sanded and oiled but I kept that one anyway.

Thats very interesting Pete as you are now the first person to come up with a way of measuring CV for yourself, which was the OPs question. I'm gonna think about this more. I find this info fascinating. For example we can compare to other fuel types. So if wood is generally around 20000 Kj/Kg, coal (from memory) was about 40k. If a difference of 10k in types of wood could be found this would be significant. However the water content and energy wasted evaporating it off is more significant and the method of burning, perhaps even more significant as you and others have said. Nice to keep this thread alive, as I say, its fascinating to me.

I can't remember:confused1:

I don't know what an IA is, but glad you came back on that one Tony. I think the wine and rollups will get this hippy, if he don't fall out of a tree first. But I thank you for making me google entropy as I'd never heard of it. It warrants more attention, but I'm not sure that its my thing. I have really had trouble understanding it. I know your'e quite a bright mathematician but the theory of it may be a bit out of my league:sneaky2:

Thats where your inclusionality is mate, you don't need the academic dude:thumbup1:

I'll be 70 by then. {scared smiley face} And just because I helped you demolish Tony's entropy thing doesn't mean your'e right. Grumpy ex new age hippy is right:biggrin:

Maybe he'll teach us how to do a cushty desk job if we ask him nicely:001_cool:

Tony's rule, .... attack the argument not the person... applies at all times. You have trees to cut tommorrow hamma, I have some logs to shift where I dropped/sectioned a whole big tall dead sycy into a 6 foot wide space, (still haven't bought a new camera) and I think tony has reports to write. And I'm trying to watch Big Brother:blushing: Edit: posted at same time H so I appear to have ignored your post or been flippant, not intended

I think he has too, I think he's trying to academic-icise something that's unacademic-iseable:001_smile: If your cup of coffee could fuel itself with food like life does, it would defeat entropy like life does. Don't get the leap to the universe and everything tone.

I wrote this ages ago and didn’t post it so some of my points have been made by others. It may still make sense throwing it in now so here we go…… Allan is saying that all things are linked and not to be seen as stand alone entities. I think most people see this for themselves. People know that a tree takes nourishment from the soil and returns this to the earth when it dies etc etc. What Allan talks about which takes this one step further is a flow of ‘something’ which links things in some more fundamental way. He also talks about links that are beneficial or natural when things are looked at as a whole and not necessarily harmful as when viewed in conventional ways. As far as I can tell he does not really identify this flow as something which can be measured or quantified. It appears to be just a flow of ‘something’ that we are asked to believe but cannot prove by the use of conventional science. I have spent some chunks of serious time close to nature and had come to a similar conclusion of my own accord. I believe that things are linked in fundamental ways and that mankind has become disconnected from nature. There are cultures around the world who are less disconnected than us. In Europe, the Swedes come to mind. In Nepal, the hill tribes come to mind. I know the people of the high Himalayas by experience. I’m not sure that you and Allan are going about this the right way. By giving this fundamental thing a name and claiming it for himself, Allan, with his ‘inclusionality’ appears to be trying to make a name for himself in the academic world with a bit of paradigm busting. I cycled across France once, from Calais to Bezier on my tod. I cycled all day long for 2 months or so, just sleeping where I ended up each day. I experienced a oneness with nature that was intense and when back in normal life I missed it in a physically palpable way. My recipe for achieving this state has to be done alone as it forces you to empty your mind with no one to talk to and after a while nothing much left to think that you haven’t thought already. It forces a state of meditation where your mind is open and receptive. When I am back here at work, in my normal life I become disconnected again. I feel this very badly and start to feel damaged and broken. I have to do a big mission again to reconect myself whenever I start to feel like this. I am long overdue for a healing chunk of reconnecting. Is this something to do with what you are on about, or am I off track? In the light of more recent posts I would add that I believe that this ‘thing’ does not belong to science, neither inclusional nor entropy-ism.

Cheers H I was just about to make a mega post on this topic which I wrote a while ago, but will answer that one first. You may remember from our epic phone chat that I study climate change for fun. Albedo is : the ability of the earths surface to reflect radiation from the sun. So high albedo is snow, low albedo is dark coloured stuff. Its an interesting subject area due to possitive feedback loops and tipping points etc. also somehow I find it quite catchy. I was a new age hippy, now I'm a grumpy old git. Below you will find my mega post on inclusionalism.

It seems that if Allan Raynor and the Entropy dudes met there would be a big words and maths fest of thermonuclear propotions. "the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints. This is a statement of the law of maximum entropy" (ref available) Does this agree with what you said about the flow of things Tony S or does it disagree, I'm really not sure. I think it disagrees but it's not in English, hence, I'm not sure. Edit: posted at same time Hama, I'm Albedo now mate

My greatest concern was what to call it. I thought of calling it ‘information’, but the word was overly used, so I decided to call it ‘uncertainty’. When I discussed it with John von Neumann, he had a better idea. Von Neumann told me, ‘You should call it entropy, for two reasons. In the first place your uncertainty function has been used in statistical mechanics under that name, so it already has a name. In the second place, and more important, nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate you will always have the advantage. ”–Conversation between Claude Shannon and John von Neumann regarding what name to give to the “measure of uncertainty” or attenuation in phone-line signals (1949) Edit: entropy is the most difficult to understand thing I have ever googled

I already feel guilty. Couldn't resist mate. I'm sure you'll get the advice you want on here soon .

Of the two, Norway might be best for you mate, as you can already spell it:biggrin: