EMERGENCY! Blood clotting stuff...

[Pinkfoot]

Once you have put the CAT on leave it on unless you're a surgeon etc. Chances are the bleed will restart. Why go against current medical advice, you look a right when trying to sort the same wound out twice...

 

Not sure on using celox on the neck, I think you'd need to be pretty sure that you won't block any vital tubes! Only really dealt with 1 serious neck injury, and I got my fingers in there and pinch the artery until my medical finished the the other more severe injuries and moved up the body. Limbs are fairly simple, to deal with.

 

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I have another question concerning Celox on ,say a neck wound.

Would it still work with a thin gauze in the wound to prevent contamination and or compromising artery .

It would perhaps be easier to clean out afterwards , without contamination?

[fen01]

You need to get celox in against the bleed, so that would prob not work. If I saw bubbles or frothing, I'd prob not use it in a neck, I'd try and find the end of that artery and pinch and hope help arrive PDQ. As long as you don't stuff celox in the airway I expect the surgeon can undo and dramas... You'd need serious medical assistance, I suspect death is quite likely with a chainsaw wound to the neck. Work position and drills... Home for tea and medals!

 

 

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[Haironyourchest]

You hit the nail on the head there , makes me laugh looking through some of the pictures on this forum of guys wearing the Fancy colorful chainsaws boots and the Breathable chainsaw trousers and then go up a tree with a top handle chainsaw wearing a fecking lycra tight fitting hi viz Tee shirt showing off the biceps !

 

Unfortunately I have first hand experience of watching my body empty itself of blood has a 14 year old kid falling through a green house !

 

I will tell you this now ...having a Toniqu or Celox in your first aid bum bag on your harness 40ft up a tree with a Major artery bleed is not worth a **** ! You will bleed yourself dry like a Christmas Turkey hung up . No way can you undo that first aid kit and administer it with a major bleed , you will get a hideous white flash in your eyes then adrenaline kicks in with panic plus you will **** yourself. Pull that knot and launch down hoping your grounding has not passed out first ! .

Again planning and Prevention are the best and always protect your arms at least .

 

Ste

 

Ive read that people pass out almost straight away from the sudden drop in blood pressure, so indeed there's little chance of successfully using the item on yourself. And unless all members of the team are similarly equipped and drill with the product under simulated stress on a periodical basis, they aren't going to help either. So why bother carrying celox or a CAT? If its arterial you're screwed, and if its less then arterial you can manage with israeli bandages and not risk complications. I carry incase someone else hits an artery - and I can only hope I'd be up to the task if the SHTF. As to myself, I'm just extremely careful, as you say, ain't nobody going be there for you.

[Agent-Arb]

 

I will tell you this now ...having a Toniqu or Celox in your first aid bum bag on your harness 40ft up a tree with a Major artery bleed is not worth a **** ! You will bleed yourself dry like a Christmas Turkey hung up . No way can you undo that first aid kit and administer it with a major bleed , you will get a hideous white flash in your eyes then adrenaline kicks in with panic plus you will **** yourself. Pull that knot and launch down hoping your grounding has not passed out first ! .

Again planning and Prevention are the best and always protect your arms at least .

 

Ste

 

 

Agreed. Prevention is better than cure.

 

I went on a forestry & arborist first aid course on Friday with Galahad Associates through Treekit. About 3 years ago I went on the ArbAid arborist first aid course. Either were well worth going on for me without a forces/medically trained background. Thoroughly recommend any kind of industry specific first aid training, & even rehearsals.

 

Previous to either course, I managed to administer first aid to a couple of minor work accidents. I've found exposure to blood squirting about helps avoid the 'headless chicken response' for the next time.

 

No-one actually Knows how they are going to react - or not - until it happens in front of them. Both times the injured person did nothing but swear, hold themselves tightly & move as little as possible. So even with the best kit if no one can use it in time your in trouble, unless you've got the will, wherewithal & experience to self rescue & or administer.

 

The ArbAid kit itself was/is top notch, all well chosen & put together. Delivered with climbing injury scenarios to work through as well as key tips on speeding up aerial rescue. The Treekit course was delivered by an ex army medic/arborist with good underpinning knowledge throughout & scenario to deal with - less emphasis on a big box of kit or being off the ground but more medical; what to to with a few key bits & why.

 

The pig study was leaving a specific brand of haemostat inside the pig for 24hours, & then noting issues afterwards. For the majority of treeworkers in the UK we should have received proper medical attention well within that timescale.

 

The thing that struck me from Friday was out of the 5 (ish) litres of blood we have in our bodies, losing a litre/litre & half means we are going into shock & or losing consciousness. With an arterial bleed from an arm this could be within 30 seconds to a minute...."!"

So in this case do you; fumble with the useless finger bandages in your 'harness first aid kit'(if you have one)?

Or if you're lucky/prepared do you fumble with the two wrappers on an Israeli bandage & get it on nice n tight, then get down?

Or sort your rope/strop management out enough so as you can hopefully reach the ground & your mates sort you out rapid style?

All with one hand.

 

Good thread, food for thought & good to hear different experiences. Keep yourselves safe.

[Haironyourchest]

In theory we should be waring kevlar sleeved and shouldered jackets in the tree as well - thought I bet there isn't a climber on the planet that does! Well, maybe in -30 degree temps....

[voj maintenance]

As others have said here I think proper planning and a contingency plan is essential.

I also think it should be compulsory to have a rescue line and harness and hitch etc. set up ready to go in the tree and you should always be thinking of" can I self rescue from here" when you're in the tree. When I did my training we had to aim for 15 mins to get a line up and get set up and get to the casualty, which is ok if it's an easy tree and you have a less serious injury to deal with. If you have a serious bleed then it more likely to be a couple of minutes. If it's an aerial bleed then it could be a lot less than that. As for treatment of a bleed I carry celox granules and an Israeli bandage in my personal first aid kit. I also have both in the big kit in the van. From what I have read celox acts as a plug and coagulates with the blood. I don't see problems with it entering the bloodstream. Both celox and the Israeli bandage are used in battle fields all over the world, that's a good enough endorsement for me. As for self administering I would rather have both items in my kit than not. Hope fully I will never need them.

 

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[Billhook]

[ame]

[/ame]

[Pinkfoot]

 

:D:cool::sly:

[fen01]

Ive read that people pass out almost straight away from the sudden drop in blood pressure, so indeed there's little chance of successfully using the item on yourself. And unless all members of the team are similarly equipped and drill with the product under simulated stress on a periodical basis, they aren't going to help either. So why bother carrying celox or a CAT? If its arterial you're screwed, and if its less then arterial you can manage with israeli bandages and not risk complications. I carry incase someone else hits an artery - and I can only hope I'd be up to the task if the SHTF. As to myself, I'm just extremely careful, as you say, ain't nobody going be there for you.

I think Haironyourchest has an unusual attitude to first aid. For the record I have a friend who lost both legs applied CATs and celx commanded and fire fight for 30 mins before he got any assistance, it's highly likely he would have died without either. I don't understand your reluctance to use something that we know WILL save someone's life. I've also personal experience of people sustaining major arterial bleeds and remaining conscious. Hemeostatic agents work, they save lives! End of. Things like quickclot are old news compared to celox...

 

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[Haironyourchest]

I think Haironyourchest has an unusual attitude to first aid. For the record I have a friend who lost both legs applied CATs and celx commanded and fire fight for 30 mins before he got any assistance, it's highly likely he would have died without either. I don't understand your reluctance to use something that we know WILL save someone's life. I've also personal experience of people sustaining major arterial bleeds and remaining conscious. Hemeostatic agents work, they save lives! End of. Things like quickclot are old news compared to celox...

 

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Well as I said, that's what I've read and heard - if my information is wrong - as your friend who lost both his legs can testify - then colour me happy! If I ever touch wood sustain an arterial wound I certainly hope, and intend, to stay conscious long enough to apply my CAT. Celox or similar haemostat will be invaluable for places where a tourniquet cannot be fixed - but the issue I have with the stuff is that guys might be tempted to use it on wounds that actually don't require it - that a bandage and elevation would stabilise - thereby risking unnecessary complications down the road.

 

Doing a quick google search, I see that on average, an arterial bleed will cause unconsciousness between 30 seconds to a couple of minutes, depending on the artery/s in question and the severity. Considering that psychological shock (distinct from medical shock) and pain would occupy a certain amount of reaction time, I think its wishful thinking that any normal person would be able to tourniquet themselves effectively in a worst case scenario. Your friend might be an exceptional individual, I do not discount that, but most mortals would meet their maker under the same conditions.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Haironyourchest