Archbishop of Canterbury doubts the presence of God!

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

 

- Jesus.

 

Seriously. He was telling a parable but he was speaking about himself.

 

Oh dear. Lots of Biblical Scholars on here again.

 

exegesis - In the parable of the ten minas, why does the king kill his enemies? - Christianity Stack Exchange

 

Hi TCD,

 

I have no issue with the fact that there could have been a chap called Jesus Christ who lived 2000 years ago. It is perfectly plausible that he existed and was indeed crucified. What needs proving is that he was the son of God (or God himself).

 

I fully appreciate that I am am probably coming across as a pedantic prat that can't just let it drop and let people believe what they want to believe. But religion has an awful lot to answer for. It causes a lot of harm and should not be immune from having to explain itself just because it is sacred to people.

 

Very good post. I quite agree with you; nowt wrong with your point there imo.

 

Indoctrination, received before the age of seven or eight, very hard to remove. Even when we intellectually know its wrong, it still influences us at some level. Religious, political, social, biases.

 

Our primitive ancestors observed correctly, that the sun is the source of life. The sun dies a bloody death every evening. And is reborn every day. If the sun didn't get reborn, we would not last long - all life would certainly fail in a matter of days or weeks.

 

Likewise the sun grows weaker in winter, and winter was a bloody tough time for them. This gave rise to seasonal magic etc. The sun came to be personified and later actual persons were ritually scarified to ensure the continued rebirth of the sun every day, and the renewal of nature's power in spring.

 

The dying and rising god evolved out of this practice, long after the human sacrifices had disappeared. All over the middle east there is an ancient tradition of these dying and rising gods.

 

The christian movement was and is also based in this tradition, which is why it was so popular and still remains active today - simply because it speck to something in our collective memories, the triumphant sun reborn.

 

Ok.

[Mull]

Hi Paul.

 

 

 

I am no stranger to spirituality and meditation. The latter has greatly helped in cementing my thoughts on the 'wrongness' of religious thinking. As I'm sure you have found, meditation helps to cut through all the nonsense that the mind is prone to throw up and shows that a great deal of our thinking is nuts and not to be trusted. I would be very interested to hear about how meditation has helped you to strengthen your faith in God.

 

 

 

The benefits of meditation and mindfulness are beginning to be supported by more and more scientifically verifiable evidence. Prayer on the other hand has been shown to have no demonstrable effect on the object of the prayer other than by coincidence.

 

It is easy to be seduced when a person recovers from a serious illness after having being prayed for. What gets overlooked is the many, many more who are also prayed for but do not recover.

 

 

 

It is certainly irrefutable that Christians have always done (and continue to do) many marvellous things to help the less fortunate in society. This is brilliant, but being a Christian is by no means a prerequisite to being good. If anything, I would suggest that religion provides an extremely dubious set of morals by which to live by.

 

 

 

Watch this video a couple of times and have a really good think. Or better still, meditate on it.

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/d9GXqYhu_CM

 

 

Watched video, was a tad disappointed tbh, expected a better argument really, religion is not about what happens in this life is it? Of course it's not, what would the point of Faith be?

Unless of course you think spending your life cutting down trees or trawling for prawns is the be all and end all?

[Mull]

Btw tvi do you have the stats for those prayed for and those who weren't?

[Mull]

Btw tvi do you have the stats for those prayed for and those who weren't?

 

 

Sorry, silly question, of course you don't! But good luck in your quest to end christianity! Over 2k yrs of belief and you're goin to end it tonight with a bit of help from skyhuck on ARBTALK😳😬😳😀

Sorry but I find it hilarious !

[the village idiot]

Sorry, silly question, of course you don't! But good luck in your quest to end christianity! Over 2k yrs of belief and you're goin to end it tonight with a bit of help from skyhuck on ARBTALK😳😬😳😀

Sorry but I find it hilarious !

 

Woah, hold your horses Mull. I got sucked in to a documentary on the TV about Wilco Johnson. Brilliant! Did anyone else see it?

 

I am sad that you find it hilarious and greatly disturbed that you are so dismissive of the Sam Harris video.

 

I think your comments highlight the huge gulf between the ways in which we view the World. To be fair, it has had much greater minds than ours debating these same things for centuries.

 

I am not on a quest to end Christianity, merely on a quest to try to understand why people who are completely rational in all other aspects of their lives choose to be mindbogglingly irrational and stubbornly unreasonable when it comes to religion. I genuinely just don't get it.

 

I also don't understand or agree with your assertion that religion is not about what happens in this life. You may think of this as true, but I'm not sure that the billions of people who unwittingly suffer in its name would agree with you.

 

I don't think huge amount of valuable resources have been spent on the study of the healing power of prayer, and I for one am thankful that they have not been. The evidence that I was referring to which casts very significant doubt on the efficacy of prayer is copied below.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0

[Mull]

Woah, hold your horses Mull. I got sucked in to a documentary on the TV about Wilco Johnson. Brilliant! Did anyone else see it?

 

 

 

I am sad that you find it hilarious and greatly disturbed that you are so dismissive of the Sam Harris video.

 

 

 

I think your comments highlight the huge gulf between the ways in which we view the World. To be fair, it has had much greater minds than ours debating these same things for centuries.

 

 

 

I am not on a quest to end Christianity, merely on a quest to try to understand why people who are completely rational in all other aspects of their lives choose to be mindbogglingly irrational and stubbornly unreasonable when it comes to religion. I genuinely just don't get it.

 

 

 

I also don't understand or agree with your assertion that religion is not about what happens in this life. You may think of this as true, but I'm not sure that the billions of people who unwittingly suffer in its name would agree with you.

 

 

 

I don't think huge amount of valuable resources have been spent on the study of the healing power of prayer, and I for one am thankful that they have not been. The evidence that I was referring to which casts very significant doubt on the efficacy of prayer is copied below.

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=0

 

 

Yes, wilco programme looked good!

If you can't get your head round someone having faith, especially if you find them " completely rational" then you on a hiding to nothing.

 

 

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

I found the above piece from the study a bit amusing I have to admit.

I'm not a Christian, but being told what to pray for and what words to use!

Of course I don't think religion is blameless, but as I said before we are a greedy, jealous nasty bunch and we seem intent on self destruction.

[the village idiot]

Yes, wilco programme looked good!

If you can't get your head round someone having faith, especially if you find them " completely rational" then you on a hiding to nothing.

 

 

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

I found the above piece from the study a bit amusing I have to admit.

I'm not a Christian, but being told what to pray for and what words to use!

Of course I don't think religion is blameless, but as I said before we are a greedy, jealous nasty bunch and we seem intent on self destruction.

 

If the congregations doing the praying in the study were not told what to pray for and given certain specific words to include then the experiment would be unscientific and no valid conclusions could be drawn.

I do find it ironic (although it is almost certainly only coincidence) that in the study, the patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered significantly more post op complications than those who didn't know if they were being prayed for or not. If this coincidence had been the other way around and those that knew they were being prayed for suffered less post op complications, you can bet your butt that people of faith would declare this as conclusive proof that prayer can work miracles. This is the frustrating thing. Religion believes that it is immune from all scientific reasoning, unless they believe that it comes out in support of their cause. Then of course it is perfectly legitimate. Scientists are happy to dismiss anomalies that support their hypothesis if they cannot be proven to be an irrefutable fact.

 

The reason I reject the concept of faith when it comes to religious belief, and why I don't accept that it can't be challenged is that it is, by definition, an acknowledgement that all rational and reasonable thought has failed. If rational thought and the unequivocal evidence of fact has demonstrated the whole concept of religion to be a nonsense, to say that "well I'm going to believe in it anyway, It makes sense to me" is surely delusional and needs to be justified.

 

I can completely understand that a fear that death is the end, and that there is no divine purpose to life is a scary prospect for people. Maybe this is the true reason why people cling to the idea of a creator who bestows life after death. But surely it is better to accept the enormous weight of evidence suggesting that this is all we've got and live this life to the full, than live a blinkered life, unable to truly understand the wonder of what is around us, (meanwhile in a lot of cases denying our children the opportunity to do the same,) for fear that a fictional supernatural being that is supposedly Love incarnate will send us to an eternity of unimaginable suffering in Hell if we choose to disregard all available evidence and believe in him unconditionally.

 

You say that you are not a Christian Mull. Do you follow a different faith, or are you just really argumentative?

[TIMON]

If the congregations doing the praying in the study were not told what to pray for and given certain specific words to include then the experiment would be unscientific and no valid conclusions could be drawn.

 

I do find it ironic (although it is almost certainly only coincidence) that in the study, the patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered significantly more post op complications than those who didn't know if they were being prayed for or not. If this coincidence had been the other way around and those that knew they were being prayed for suffered less post op complications, you can bet your butt that people of faith would declare this as conclusive proof that prayer can work miracles. This is the frustrating thing. Religion believes that it is immune from all scientific reasoning, unless they believe that it comes out in support of their cause. Then of course it is perfectly legitimate. Scientists are happy to dismiss anomalies that support their hypothesis if they cannot be proven to be an irrefutable fact.

 

 

 

The reason I reject the concept of faith when it comes to religious belief, and why I don't accept that it can't be challenged is that it is, by definition, an acknowledgement that all rational and reasonable thought has failed. If rational thought and the unequivocal evidence of fact has demonstrated the whole concept of religion to be a nonsense, to say that "well I'm going to believe in it anyway, It makes sense to me" is surely delusional and needs to be justified.

 

 

 

I can completely understand that a fear that death is the end, and that there is no divine purpose to life is a scary prospect for people. Maybe this is the true reason why people cling to the idea of a creator who bestows life after death. But surely it is better to accept the enormous weight of evidence suggesting that this is all we've got and live this life to the full, than live a blinkered life, unable to truly understand the wonder of what is around us, (meanwhile in a lot of cases denying our children the opportunity to do the same,) for fear that a fictional supernatural being that is supposedly Love incarnate will send us to an eternity of unimaginable suffering in Hell if we choose to disregard all available evidence and believe in him unconditionally.

 

 

 

You say that you are not a Christian Mull. Do you follow a different faith, or are you just really argumentative?

 

 

Hi VI,

 

My faith has had a dramatic and profound effect on my life that is quantifiable. The "mechanics" of my faith and the transformation that has resulted from it are evident even to the most ardent atheist.

Cutting edge and established scientific methods consistently proved worthless in helping me escape my addiction issues.

Would you say then, that my "cure" and transformation from a low down stinking thieving junkie into a person who spends his life helping others, working hard, continuing on a journey of increasing good character through my faith has been brought about by a delusion????

Really interested to know.

Thanks

Timon

[TIMON]

A man with a genuine experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument

[the village idiot]

Hi VI,

 

My faith has had a dramatic and profound effect on my life that is quantifiable. The "mechanics" of my faith and the transformation that has resulted from it are evident even to the most ardent atheist.

Cutting edge and established scientific methods consistently proved worthless in helping me escape my addiction issues.

Would you say then, that my "cure" and transformation from a low down stinking thieving junkie into a person who spends his life helping others, working hard, continuing on a journey of increasing good character through my faith has been brought about by a delusion????

Really interested to know.

Thanks

Timon

 

Hi Ti,

 

Yes I would.

 

The fact that you have have turned your life around in such a dramatic and worthwhile fashion is absolutely fantastic, and I don't in any way dispute the fact that this extremely positive change was triggered by whatever revelation it was that you experienced.

 

What I do dispute however is that your experience in any way shape or form proves the existence of God.

 

There is no need or indeed any justification for attributing transformative experiences to a supernatural power. The fact that you have chosen to attribute yours to God and have decided to live your life by the good bits of his example has had a brilliantly positive result and that is great. If you had been born into a different culture, say that of the Taliban, and had the same revelatory experience, chances are the result would have been entirely different. This is the unavoidable paradox of religious belief. You both believe absolutely in a 'one true God' that is good and just. You cannot both be right. One of you is definitely wrong. All the evidence suggests beyond all reasonable doubt that you are both wrong.

 

The onus is really on those with religious faith to justify their faith. The fact that your faith compels you to do wonderful things is brilliant, but all it proves is that it has transformed you into a person who does fantastically worthwhile things. It is an entirely different thing to say that it provides evidence for the existence of God. It does not.

 

I'm sure that you understand I'm not saying that the great deeds you do are delusional, just that your conclusion as to why you do them is delusional.

 

Just because a belief in God necessitates the application of faith does not explain why there is absolutely zero conclusive evidence that he exists. It is not unreasonable to think that an all powerful God who has total control over every event that occurs in our universe would leave at least one scrap of evidence that corroborated his existence.

As it stands, every single example of reasoned thought suggests that the concept of God is delusional. So until those of a religious persuasion can offer some concrete evidence to the contrary (which if he does indeed exist should be ridiculously easy) he will remain a delusion in my book.

 

A man with a genuine experience (that can be proven as such) is never at the mercy of a man with an argument