Do students learn any thing?

[skyhuck]

The scenarios are endless but getting back to the point, if you havent got the relevent competency, be it NPTC or LANTRA etc then you're not really insured and that is against the law.

 

There a many ways of showing an employee has had training, the NPTC is just ONE way.

 

Last time I looked on the HSE list, chipper ticket wasn't even on the recommended list.

[combined tree services]

As I see it, and I may be wrong.... but.... It is illegal to work without adequate insurance, be it public liability or employers? correct?

If you employ someone, even if they are self employed you legally have to have employers liability and when purchasing employers you must also have public so the two are hand in hand...

 

Righto, so to be insured, you have to be qualified for what you are doing or the insurance company will void your policy...

 

E.G.. somebody climbing a tree and cutting without CS 38, 39 etc, has an accident and a claim ensues...... insurance company say ''we're very sorry but we can not honour your policy as your employee was not qualified for the task he was performing''

 

So, in a round about way, having the necessary qualifications is the law..

If you dont have them then you dont have insurance and that is illegal.

 

 

There are many cans of worms here, another example would be LOLER... if I have a guy in climbing and his rope snaps the insurance company would want to see the last LOLER inspection and the record of usage... if you dont have it then they will duck out of the claim and leave you shafted

 

 

Felled a tree through a powerline? ... Where was his UA.1/UA.2??

 

Contaminated a river with propyzamide? ... Where was his PA1/PA6??

 

Had a nasty accident with a chipper? ... Where was his brushwood chipper ticket?

 

 

The scenarios are endless but getting back to the point, if you havent got the relevent competency, be it NPTC or LANTRA etc then you're not really insured and that is against the law.

 

how about guy fresh out of college is climbing and trying to rush the job because the boss said that collgeg is a load of crap and the job does not take as long as it takes so he has to hurry up . so he does resulting in his injury , groun staff get injured or worse still he dies !!!!!

 

yes the list is endles

 

if the your new member of staff does not have the relevant ticket for that certain job then he should not be doing it . it is up to either hi mor you or both of you to get him qualified to do so .not keep preatching on about how colleges dont want to teach it

[skyhuck]

So you are telling me that my insurance company will cover me comprehensivley if I dont have a loler inspection, dont have a ticket for climbing, dont have a record of usage, dont have a health and safety policy etc?

 

 

If that is the case why have any of us bothered to do any training whatsoever?

 

My insurers have never asked for any of those and I have had an employee claim and they still asked for none of them.

 

The main reason I have the things you mention is because it a requirement of the H&S policy of many of the organizations for whom I work.

[Highland Forestry]

im sorry but i have been reading many of these posts and asking my self how in touch some people are !!! i went to merrist wood after 3 years in the industry getting the experiance to make the most out of going to college , i went there with sc 30,31,31b, 38 ,39 , ual , wood chipper and mewp . i went there to gain skills that sadly training out in the industry could not offer nor could it offer the time to keep parctising till i got it right and further more if you got it wrong there was nothing underneath to hurt !!. you may have had 3 bad climbers from merrist wood but i know of alot that are now leaders in the industry !!!! as for having every qualification when they leave then the fees would double , the length of the course would double and to be fair how many climbers do you know that need pa units ?? .

 

as for the job taking as long as it takes to get the job done safely being a load of crap (your words not mine) How the f**k do you expect someone to get any experiance and work efficiently and safely if they are expected to work at industry pace ?? it really does F**K me right of that there is all this bravado within the industry its crap like this that leads young guys to try and race which causes accidents which in turn puts the insurance premiums up !!!!!

 

in one sentence your shouting about qualifications and the next your more or less stating that these guys need to come strate out of college with the level of experiance that a guy has got form 2-3 years in the industry and work at the same pace !!! it aint going to happen and if this is the way in which your deciding who is and who is not any good then i really think you need to have a re-think on your approach to taking guys on , more to the point im sure if some one such as Jack Kenyon were to see you as an arborist he would probably have a list of faults with you , just the same as he would me . im not trying to get personal but take a look back to when you started out . you knew just as little as any of the rest of us but as we progress we learn more and improve on productivity .

 

finally as for the remark that the college seems to fill their heads full of **** i think that its more a case that once again bravardo seems to be the way to impress in this trade and thats what they try to do . i personally have tried my best not to behave like that as i feel that it will get you no where . the guys i have taken on fresh out of college have what i feel is required to start work in the trade and now it is up to them and the employer to improve there skills base and qualifications such as cs40,41 , chipper , mewp , ua units etc etc .

 

rant over:laugh1:

 

 

CTS - you are to be commended then mate and yeah sounds like I probably had three bad climbers, but as already mentioned in this thread, the 10wk course was originally designed for people with experience to gain more skills and so you fitted the bill perfectly.

 

I would never expect somebody to come straight out of college and be able to work as competently as somebody with 2 or 3 years experience but the point I was trying to make is that from the guys I had, they were of the mindset that it is ok to go on a go-slow and take ages over a job because they were ''being safe'' .... learning and improving is one thing but taking the piss out of the guy paying your wages because you are ''being safe'' is another..... is stopping for a cup of tea every half an hour because ''I'm being safe'' ok?

 

I think anybody could come up with a list of faults with anybody, and I am no exception to this.... stevie often points out my faults!

BUT... I dont call myself an arborist and I never will do.

I agree with you on the whole bravado issue and it annoys me that guys come straight out of college saying they can do this and do that and did this and did that and are a professional arborist when in reality they are somebody with the very very minimum tickets and normally minimum experience and they are pretending to be a professional....

So, as an employer when somebody comes to you saying all this, you want to see them perform as they say they can do.

 

I have to admit, the next guy I take on will have to have an interview and send in a propper CV because I've had some really bad experiences with numpties over the last year and that has probably clouded my vision somewhat.

 

Sorry x

[combined tree services]

My insurers have never asked for any of those and I have had an employee claim and they still asked for none of them.

 

The main reason I have the things you mention is because it a requirement of the H&S policy of many of the organizations for whom I work.

 

well said

 

tell me how do you get the experiance as a climber if you dont get up there and do it ?, 38 and 39 means you can climb a tree and use a chainsaw in a tree ie cutting branches etc to do the training for 40 and 41 you need to have a fair bit of experiance working in a tree to be able to complete the training and test .

[Highland Forestry]

My insurers have never asked for any of those and I have had an employee claim and they still asked for none of them.

 

The main reason I have the things you mention is because it a requirement of the H&S policy of many of the organizations for whom I work.

 

 

My insurers wanted to know what tickets I had as well as how many guys working for me and what tickets they have, they also wanted to know if we had a H & S policy, drugs and alcohol policy, employment policy, induction training, they wanted to know if I complyed with LOLER and I will have to proove it all if I ever have a claim..

[Highland Forestry]

 

The main reason I have the things you mention is because it a requirement of the H&S policy of many of the organizations for whom I work.

 

That is a very valid point, it's the same for us as well.... but the guys we contracting to are just playing the liability game and thats why they require the tickets. They are covering their arse the same as I have to cover mine..

[combined tree services]

CTS - you are to be commended then mate and yeah sounds like I probably had three bad climbers, but as already mentioned in this thread, the 10wk course was originally designed for people with experience to gain more skills and so you fitted the bill perfectly.

 

I would never expect somebody to come straight out of college and be able to work as competently as somebody with 2 or 3 years experience but the point I was trying to make is that from the guys I had, they were of the mindset that it is ok to go on a go-slow and take ages over a job because they were ''being safe'' .... learning and improving is one thing but taking the piss out of the guy paying your wages because you are ''being safe'' is another..... is stopping for a cup of tea every half an hour because ''I'm being safe'' ok?

 

I think anybody could come up with a list of faults with anybody, and I am no exception to this.... stevie often points out my faults!

BUT... I dont call myself an arborist and I never will do.

I agree with you on the whole bravado issue and it annoys me that guys come straight out of college saying they can do this and do that and did this and did that and are a professional arborist when in reality they are somebody with the very very minimum tickets and normally minimum experience and they are pretending to be a professional....

So, as an employer when somebody comes to you saying all this, you want to see them perform as they say they can do.

 

I have to admit, the next guy I take on will have to have an interview and send in a propper CV because I've had some really bad experiences with numpties over the last year and that has probably clouded my vision somewhat.

 

Sorry x

 

tell you what try and interview two decent guys as im in need of one too i do agree that many coleges are taking simply working on quantity and not quality of students , when i went to merrist wood i had an interview to make sure i fitted the criteria however is seemed that the other guys on my course did not ,i was the youngest ther with the most experiance!! you are right that most lads fresh out of college are full of it , 2 weeks ago i had a guy down that had just left college and was one of the best in his year !!! he was totally useless and took just over 2 hours to do what i would do in 15 mins, he had more anchor point than the QE2 and then had the cheek when he got down from the tree to swan off for junch and watch me clear up . hence he did not get the job and left me thinking that if he was one of the best in his college what would one of the worst do ????

 

i really want to set a scheem up where i tske a guy on for a year to gain experiance and then send him away for 6 -12 months to somewhere like merrist wood where i can still monitor his progress and once again sorry for my previous rant it really was not aimed at you in specific

[Highland Forestry]

tell you what try and interview two decent guys as im in need of one too i do agree that many coleges are taking simply working on quantity and not quality of students , when i went to merrist wood i had an interview to make sure i fitted the criteria however is seemed that the other guys on my course did not ,i was the youngest ther with the most experiance!! you are right that most lads fresh out of college are full of it , 2 weeks ago i had a guy down that had just left college and was one of the best in his year !!! he was totally useless and took just over 2 hours to do what i would do in 15 mins, he had more anchor point than the QE2 and then had the cheek when he got down from the tree to swan off for junch and watch me clear up . hence he did not get the job and left me thinking that if he was one of the best in his college what would one of the worst do ????

 

i really want to set a scheem up where i tske a guy on for a year to gain experiance and then send him away for 6 -12 months to somewhere like merrist wood where i can still monitor his progress and once again sorry for my previous rant it really was not aimed at you in specific

 

 

Likewise, I wasn't aiming anything at you either..

 

LMFAO - ''More anchor points than the QE2'' LOL i'll remember that one.

 

One of the lads I had out of merrist wood took literally a whole day to do what I could have one myself in a couple of hours.... this is when I started to think about the quality of his training... for starters it took him 45 mins to get a throwline up and get his rope up..

 

If you come out of college telling me you're the dogs bollox then I want to see a ****-hot climber... it's not a case of it being my problem if he's no good... afterall..he's told me he's an ''arborist'' not a ''tree surgeon!'' and all the shpeel that goes with it.

 

The best guys and the best climbers I have seen so far have all learned through experience of actually doing the job. Some of them have more professional qualifications that were obtained as CPD and some of them are like me and just have their NPTC units.

[Andy Clark]

No!!

 

EL is required NOT PL

 

What?? Public Liability insurance is not required??

 

Chap, i would go and kick your brokers arse if i were you.

 

ANY business trading in this country MUST have public liability cover.