subcontracting to the same company

[Ian Flatters]

I've employed 2 people in the past all of which were treated as I would of liked to be treated by an employer, they expected everything and gave very little in return. I would not employ again, finding the right employee is hard but then you find them and they get the old green eye of jealousy, don't respect equipment, let you down etc.

 

 

I've gone through a few. One got fired because he was moonlighting for another company. I've got nout against them doing a little private job on a weekend though as I'm busy enough. But your right they think all the money off the job is yours and forget about the 70k of equipment that's on finance to keep them in a job.

[beechwood]

Interesting thread

Went through the whole Subbie climber thing we my accountant a couple of years ago, when one of my long term employees as if he could go self employed and like a few on hear have said/implied the normal way it's done in our industry, hiring a guy in to work with your staff/kit during the hours you set, is not being self employed. That said every/most companies do it.

 

There is a company local to me where pretty much the entire workforce is self employed but not really working under self employed conditions, they have been doing it that way for 20yrs. Some of there guys hate it and want to be a full time employee with all the perks that entails (all be it at the same money their on now!), some are quite happy with the arrangement.

 

I always took the view that a lot of employers must be doing it because it's cheaper, no employers NI, no payroll costs, no PPE cost, no HR cost (you don't like you just stop using them), no training costs etc etc and its easier to find subbies than full time employees.

 

I'm personally not comfortable with hiring Subbies for the reasons previously highlighted, about HMRC coming after employers for the tax but I still do it when I have to.

I don't have a few guys who are bonafide sub contractors ie a give them whole jobs to do they provide their own kit, vehicle, fuel etc and decide how, when and with who they do the job.

 

I don't see the situation within our industry changing unless there is a industry specific clampdown by HMRC, like they did on the construction 10 or so years ago, so as employers we have to weigh up the risks against gains and do what we think is best.

 

As to original post your probably not self employed and the 75% thing is bollocks/rumour/urban myth. Doesn't mean you can't work for the company but just you and them are taking a risk. As someone else suggested go on their books and work self employed for others.

[bolthole]

Interesting thread

Went through the whole Subbie climber thing we my accountant a couple of years ago, when one of my long term employees as if he could go self employed and like a few on hear have said/implied the normal way it's done in our industry, hiring a guy in to work with your staff/kit during the hours you set, is not being self employed. That said every/most companies do it.

 

There is a company local to me where pretty much the entire workforce is self employed but not really working under self employed conditions, they have been doing it that way for 20yrs. Some of there guys hate it and want to be a full time employee with all the perks that entails (all be it at the same money their on now!), some are quite happy with the arrangement.

 

I always took the view that a lot of employers must be doing it because it's cheaper, no employers NI, no payroll costs, no PPE cost, no HR cost (you don't like you just stop using them), no training costs etc etc and its easier to find subbies than full time employees.

 

I'm personally not comfortable with hiring Subbies for the reasons previously highlighted, about HMRC coming after employers for the tax but I still do it when I have to.

I don't have a few guys who are bonafide sub contractors ie a give them whole jobs to do they provide their own kit, vehicle, fuel etc and decide how, when and with who they do the job.

 

I don't see the situation within our industry changing unless there is a industry specific clampdown by HMRC, like they did on the construction 10 or so years ago, so as employers we have to weigh up the risks against gains and do what we think is best.

 

As to original post your probably not self employed and the 75% thing is bollocks/rumour/urban myth. Doesn't mean you can't work for the company but just you and them are taking a risk. As someone else suggested go on their books and work self employed for others.

 

I'd always thought that the idea of sub contracting was to be able to buy-in a service as and when you needed it; for example, in terms of domestic work for a one-man-band, you'd be looking to say blitz all your climbing/rigging down jobs in a couple of weeks a month by hiring in additional subbies - climber(S) and or groundie(S). The subbies provide their own kit and insurance and you pay them accordingly. It's clear from the outset that they themselves are a business and the rates they charge account for their own overheads, tax, NI and profit. As you are hiring them in, you'd spec the job and take on the responsibility for making sure that it was done safely, to spec and that the customer care side of things was up to scratch.

 

For bigger set-ups it might get a bit more complicated, but it should be clear that subbing-in supplementary staff or hiring in someone to stump grind is occasional and clearly not an employment situation.

 

This seems as simple as when you want your chipper serviced; you take it to the dealer and they sort it. They don't ask to borrow your tools and there's no question that you're paying for a service as opposed to employing them.

 

By and large, I've found that HMRC just want you to pay some tax - if they feel that you're pushing things too far, they come after you.

 

If you've got a decent accountant, they will know how this works.

[hamdogg]

I do my own work and go subbie climbing, buy all my own gear Ppe and pay my own insurance!! How the hell can people say I need to be employed!! Ridiculous

[Hodge]

I do my own work and go subbie climbing, buy all my own gear Ppe and pay my own insurance!! How the hell can people say I need to be employed!! Ridiculous

 

 

But when you are contract climbing your insurance means nothing, whoever you are climbing for should have EL insurance to cover you. There are a lot of companies who think they don't need EL insurance as they are using contract climbers and there are a lot of climbers who think that they must have their own insurance but it's not the case.

[hamdogg]

Oh I completely agree! I keep telling company's my insurance doesn't stand for owt! But I have pl and el for my own work when I use subbies!!

[Hodge]

The whole subject of self employed/labour only subbies is a difficult situation. For example, I use self employed workers because I can't afford to employ someone because the amount of thing the employer has to cover would make my prices have to go up to cover it. PPE, holidays, sick pay and now pensions and staff expecting a self employed wage on the books. Then there is added cost from the payroll and the list goes on. If as is the way in summer my tree work drops to a A couple of days a week I could not afford to pay someone full time. I couldn't afford to pay a climber to be splitting logs etc it just wouldn't work. IMO the HMRC have no grasp on reality and rather than wanting to find a solution they just set out stupid rules that works for them not the small business man. People go on about workers rights but what about the business owners rights?? There should be a way that we could take the contract climbers tax at source like CIS. The trouble is there are subbies in this industry that live hand to mouth and worry about paying their tax when they have to if at all. If say a climber came in for the day, and was paid £140 then you take his Tax and NI off and he gets what's left with a proof of payment then that would work well for all concerned. The HMRC would make more money as everyone would be paying and subbies wouldn't have to find tax every Jan.

[Hodge]

Oh I completely agree! I keep telling company's my insurance doesn't stand for owt! But I have pl and el for my own work when I use subbies!!

 

 

Sound mate. I wasn't aiming it a u

[hamdogg]

The whole subject of self employed/labour only subbies is a difficult situation. For example, I use self employed workers because I can't afford to employ someone because the amount of thing the employer has to cover would make my prices have to go up to cover it. PPE, holidays, sick pay and now pensions and staff expecting a self employed wage on the books. Then there is added cost from the payroll and the list goes on. If as is the way in summer my tree work drops to a A couple of days a week I could not afford to pay someone full time. I couldn't afford to pay a climber to be splitting logs etc it just wouldn't work. IMO the HMRC have no grasp on reality and rather than wanting to find a solution they just set out stupid rules that works for them not the small business man. People go on about workers rights but what about the business owners rights?? There should be a way that we could take the contract climbers tax at source like CIS. The trouble is there are subbies in this industry that live hand to mouth and worry about paying their tax when they have to if at all. If say a climber came in for the day, and was paid £140 then you take his Tax and NI off and he gets what's left with a proof of payment then that would work well for all concerned. The HMRC would make more money as everyone would be paying and subbies wouldn't have to find tax every Jan.

 

 

Exactly! Find a solution that helps everyone!

[Luckyeleven]

Anyone thought about/ looked into hiring on zero hours contracts?