Insurance without tickets

[skyhuck]

That's the £1m question! Not sure I 100% know the answer.

 

I think you just have to start from a presumption that people will stick to their word and do a good job (unless there are serious red flags - "Sorry I'm late to quote, sir. I just dropped a Giant Redwood on my truck.").

 

How did anyone judge a tradesman in the good(bad?) old days? You couldn't show a portfolio of neat work on your smartphone. Nobody had tickets.

I imagine people relied on trust, reputation and the economic reality that bad people shouldn't be able to survive in business.

Fred Dibnah was being talked about on here the other day. Who asked to see his IRATA paperwork, his level 9 NVQ in laddoriculture, his pipe smoking permit?

 

PL insurance is not a legal requirements, so just crack on, or get insurance and hope that if things go wrong they will payout.

 

Fred did have a runnin with the HSE, read his book, it's very funny.

[Andy Collins]

How do you judge a tradesman these days? I'd rarely check his tickets,scout badge or anything else. I'd ask someone else who'd use them if they'd recommend, if they liked and trusted them, if they clean up and care about the jobs they do. Word of mouth. It's always worked like that, yes rogue traders do con people, look the part and so on, but let's face it they only last so long in an area before moving on. I've known local trades for the last 30-40yrs, I know the ones to avoid and the ones to use, the ones I trust 100% and the ones not to touch with a barge pole, and likewise as a trade, people know me and have me in. I got asked for my tickets, and proof of insurance for a pub job the other day, first time in nearly ten years, bloke didn't even read them or check me out with the insurance company, which I invited him to do. People just don't care unless something goes wrong.

[daltontrees]

What a load of codswallop

 

Skyhuck, apart form a bit of gentle sparring here on Arbtalk, all good-natured exchanges of professional opinion, I don't know you from Adam and frequently disagree with you ,but even though I have never walloped a cod in my life I have to find myself agreeing with you on much of this.

 

Mr AHPP, I think you are suffering from some sort of society-fatigue that we all feel about many things in the industry and in daily life a lot of the time. But it doesn't make it right in any sense that you should want to portray yourself as equal to insured parties who have tickets.

 

There seem to be a couple of overlapping issues here. For someone to be covered (and I don't mean their own a*ses, I mean those of the public and clients) you need to be good, you need to be insured AND you need to be able to demonstrate competence. All of these need to have been addressed. You can have 1 or 2 out of 3 but if it all goes horribly wrong you can't complain if your insurer leaves you standing when you injure a punter or an employee. If you have tickets and are nisured but you are a poor climber, commercially you will fail. If you are insured and are proficient commercially but cannot demonstrate competence in accordance with the H&S legislation, it is clear to me why your insurer won't cover you for accidents.

 

Try this. Get car insurance by claiming falsely that you have 20 years no-claims discount and a trailer license. Then get into a crash and see if your insurer doesn't do a bit of investigtion then drop you like a stone.

 

Yes it's rubbish that tickets are more valuable on the face of it than grandfather-rights. But that's the way the world is. Success is not by tickets, it's tickets plus ability. If you are competent, get the tickets. If you are assessed and pass, good and your insurance will be valid and you're covered by your insurance. If you are assessed and fail, well ...

 

Me, I've paid for my tickets and I pass on a fraction of that cost to each and every customer. I'm not fond of competing with people who don't have to do the same.

 

I think what we all need to remember about insurance is that if there's an accident the public is covered and then if it turns out the insurance is invalid because of false declarations or omissions by the insured, the insurer will turn on the 'insured' and rip the shirt off their back. Getting insurance without tickets may well be possible, but it's just gambling because you won't really be covered at all.

[Simply Business]

I don’t have any of the usual certificates, awards, paper qualifications etc for tree work. I will not be getting any. For the sake of this thread (and my sanity), please assume that I am competent and talk no more about this.

 

I want public liability insurance. Some firms have already told me they do not insure people without NPTC certificates. Can anyone please recommend an insurer who does not require evidence of competence by way of tickets and will not try to fall back on an exemption clause if I need to claim. I want to hear from people who have asked the questions and checked the small print. Hopefully I can save some time ringing round hundreds of insurers. I will be sure to tell any insurer of the source of a recommendation if you’d like me to.

 

Many thanks.

 

It's true that a lot of insurers won't be able to insure you without a valid UK Chainsaw Certificate, however, they may be some that can.

 

I'd suggest giving British Insurance Brokers' Association :: BIBA a try. They can point you in the direction of insurers that will cover you without tickets

 

Hope this helps!

[hamdogg]

What a load of codswallop

 

 

I agree

[hamdogg]

If your capable and good at your job, why not go and spend some money on your tickets (tax deductible) it's the same with all these sub 750kg chipper people (GO GET YOUR LICENCE!!!!) oh and again (tax deductible)

[AHPP]

It's true that a lot of insurers won't be able to insure you without a valid UK Chainsaw Certificate, however, they may be some that can.

 

I'd suggest giving British Insurance Brokers' Association :: BIBA a try. They can point you in the direction of insurers that will cover you without tickets

 

Hope this helps!

 

Now that's a handy post! Many thanks.

[AHPP]

Skyhuck, apart form a bit of gentle sparring here on Arbtalk, all good-natured exchanges of professional opinion, I don't know you from Adam and frequently disagree with you ,but even though I have never walloped a cod in my life I have to find myself agreeing with you on much of this.

 

Mr AHPP, I think you are suffering from some sort of society-fatigue that we all feel about many things in the industry and in daily life a lot of the time. But it doesn't make it right in any sense that you should want to portray yourself as equal to insured parties who have tickets.

The first mention of being inequal to ticket holders was made just here by you.

 

There seem to be a couple of overlapping issues here. For someone to be covered (and I don't mean their own a*ses, I mean those of the public and clients) you need to be good, you need to be insured AND you need to be able to demonstrate competence. All of these need to have been addressed. You can have 1 or 2 out of 3 but if it all goes horribly wrong you can't complain if your insurer leaves you standing when you injure a punter or an employee. If you have tickets and are nisured but you are a poor climber, commercially you will fail. If you are insured and are proficient commercially but cannot demonstrate competence in accordance with the H&S legislation, it is clear to me why your insurer won't cover you for accidents.

H&S legislation doesn't require tickets.

Also consider what insurance is there for. Everybody gets stuff wrong from time to time. Otherwise, why have it.

 

Try this. Get car insurance by claiming falsely that you have 20 years no-claims discount and a trailer license. Then get into a crash and see if your insurer doesn't do a bit of investigtion then drop you like a stone.

Be sure to read my other posts carefully. I am coming to this with scrupulously clean hands. I don not want to lie to insurers to get covered because, if I need to claim, the premium will have been money down the drain.

 

Yes it's rubbish that tickets are more valuable on the face of it than grandfather-rights. But that's the way the world is. Success is not by tickets, it's tickets plus ability. If you are competent, get the tickets. If you are assessed and pass, good and your insurance will be valid and you're covered by your insurance. If you are assessed and fail, well ...

 

Me, I've paid for my tickets and I pass on a fraction of that cost to each and every customer. I'm not fond of competing with people who don't have to do the same.

Nobody forced you to get the tickets. I won't pay any money for tickets but I'll still charge the same as you. That's the way the world is. I'm not fond of competing against people who use NPTC tickets as cheap (but often undeserved) credibility. I'm equally unfond of living in a world where I have to arse about with threads like this to try and narrow down insurers that will touch me because so many other people have bought into the ticket system and it has become a norm.

 

I think what we all need to remember about insurance is that if there's an accident the public is covered and then if it turns out the insurance is invalid because of false declarations or omissions by the insured, the insurer will turn on the 'insured' and rip the shirt off their back. Getting insurance without tickets may well be possible, but it's just gambling because you won't really be covered at all.

NO NO NO NO NO! Read my posts carefully! I specifically want to avoid a scenario where my cover isn't actually cover.

 

Thank you for debating intelligently. Others have not been so kind.

[skyhuck]

AHPP, please suggest a sensible alternative to tickets as a means of proving competence?

 

I thought posts 3 and 4 had established its very difficult.

 

Sure tickets aint perfect, in fact I agree they are a bit of a joke, but for the purposes of securing insurance and covering your duty of care as an employer for H&S they really are the only game in town.

[Wood wasp]

I understand your sentiments AHPP, the incredible amount of bureaucracy in place now and accompanying non jobs are a massive drain on our economy.

 

i remember when machine tickets first came out and you needed different tickets for a 8 wheel forwarder and 6 wheel forwarder.

 

Good luck with your search