RE Verifying Climbing Experience

[daltontrees]

That'll be for bonafide subcontractors not freelance climbers, you've employed that person for 1 day to work alongside you so they'll be working under your employers and public liability insurance. If you priced a job won it and got a sub contractor in to complete the job then they'll need insurance

 

Having just read sopme of the stuff int neh insurance fsubforum, I am more confused than ever.I am going to look at my policy, and I will post my findings. So much in these threads just talks about insurance but people confuse PL and EL. EL is of course in law compulsory. PL is commercially essential for contractors. After that it just gets murky.

 

I must now add to the advice given to the OP that he MUST check that the subby's kit is LOLERED. There seems to be no way round this.

[arbogrunt]

always makes me laugh when people ask for CS40...I'd just ask for some photos of some recent pruning. I only employ climbers I know, generally those who I have worked with in the past...its difficult getting someone in that you don't know, as lets face it, NPTC units don't have much say when it comes to saying 'I'm a good tree surgeon!'....

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

always makes me laugh when people ask for CS40...I'd just ask for some photos of some recent pruning. I only employ climbers I know, generally those who I have worked with in the past...its difficult getting someone in that you don't know, as lets face it, NPTC units don't have much say when it comes to saying 'I'm a good tree surgeon!'....

 

That may be true, but not having them could lead to questions from the insurer it it all goes pear shaped. It's that old chestnut: Tickets don't make quality, but absence of recognised and established industry standard training and certification (NPTC) could leave the employer uninsured and liable to HSE prosecution.

 

It's just my take on it, and I'm not saying having the qual makes for a quality operator, but not having the qual has to leave a bigger unanswered question about quality?

[daltontrees]

OK, here's what I have established.

 

The Business Insurance Expert says this -

 

"There are two distinct types of sub-contractor and it is important that your business is able to distinguish between these different types of sub-contractor. The nature of the contract and your working relationship with the sub-contractor (whether they be a bona fide sub-contractor or a labour only sub-contractor) will have ramifications for the responsibilities you will be assuming and consequently the type of Liability Insurance you require to cover your potential liability.

 

"The following should help you to determine between the different types of sub-contractor and whether Employers Liability Insurance is required.

 

"Labour Only Sub-Contractors - Labour only sub-contractors generally work under the direction of the employer and they do not provide their own materials or tools or than small hand tools. They would be considered as employees for the purposes of an |Employers Liability Insurance policy.

 

"Bona Fide Sub-Contractors - Bona fide sub-contractors generally work under their own direction and provide their own materials and tools. They should also take out their own Public Liability Insurance. Provided they are not working under your direction, have their own legal liabilities which they insure themselves, there is no need to include these in the count of employees."

 

My insurance policy Arborisk includes EL and PL for labour only subcontractors (LOS) but not for bona fide subcontractors (BFS). So ask this question. If a subby turns up with his own climbing and lowring kit and saws, gets into the tree and directs the brash-rats as to what to do as he prepares to send stuff down, is he a LOS or a BFS? To my mind there's no doubt at all that he is there as a BFS. He is therefore not covered by Arborisk and if he screws up and hurts someone or flattens a car, you're liable because you brought him there but he's not covered by your insurance.

 

The Business Insurance Expert goes on to say

 

"It is therefore imperative that whenever you enter in to a contract with a bona fide sub-contractor, you must check that they have Public Liability cover in force for the type of activities they will be undertaking for you and that it will be in force for the duration of the period for which they will be undertaking the work. You must also check that the indemnity limit provided under their policy is at least as much as the limit provided under your own policy. If you do not do this, your own policy would be invalidated and you would therefore have to meet your own legal liability and associated legal costs out of your own coffers."

 

He then adds, very usefully and I expect authoritatively -

 

There are a number of factors to take into account when determining the status of a sub-contractor.

 

A worker would be regarded as a Labour Only Sub-Contractor (and would need to be covered for Employers Liability Insurance) they meet the following criteria

(1) They are paid by the hour, week or month

(2) They are entitled to receive overtime pay or a bonus payment

(3) They only supply their own small hand tools

(4) They always have to do the work themselves

(5) The main contractor can tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it

(6) They work a set amount of hours

(7) The main contractor can move them from task to task

 

A worker would be regarded as a bona fide sub-contractor if they meet the following criteria

(1) They undertake a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take

(2)They have a contract for the provision of services as opposed to a contract of employment

(3) Within an overall deaddline, they are able to decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services

(4) They regularly work for a number of different people other than the main contractor

(5) They have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense

(6) They hold their own Public Liability insurance in their own name. (Public Liability insurance is not a statutory compulsory form of insurance so it is possible that a sub-contractor may not have this form of insurance)

(7) They pay the cost of all materials or supplies required for the work without being reimbursed

(8) They are free to hire someone else to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense

(9) They risk their own money

(10) They provide or hire in the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves.

 

Which does a typical subby sound most like?

 

Tell me please that I'm wrong and why?

[Mark Bolam]

Interesting stuff there Dalton, and I know what you're saying.

[codlasher]

I think that if you have been doing job along enough you'll be able to tell within a reasonable time if anyone is any use. I'm not sure of the ten minute rule but I get the gist.

I had two climbers, one was like a sloth on the ground as gravity works differently up in the air. He came into his own up in a tree. The second was ok airborne but way better and probably the best feller I have known excepting the late Mr Crawford. I know several other good climbers but haven't had the privilege to employ them, except one and this is early days.....

codlasher

[CJM]

He will be a labour only subby, he's working under your direction using his own tools and he's working a set amount of hours. If the kit hasn't been loler tested and it fails then that's your fault for not checking and you'll be liable.

Just because he's telling the groundsmen what to do doesn't mean he's running the job

[felixthelogchopper]

Jules, it all depends on how you run the job. If you get a climber in for a day and provide a ground crew, you are dictating how and when he/she does the job at a macrolevel. The climber controls the groundcrew purely at a microlevel as his/her actions dictate how the job continues at the level of the manual activity itself. The employer will tell the climber when the job is to be done and with who they will be doing it. The climber has no say in the quoting stage nor any financial stake beyond their own fee. The climbing kit and saw are mere tools of the trade. You would need to place the job in its entirety in the hands of the climber to make them a bona fide subcontractor, meaning they have to arrange kit and crew themself.

[Mark Bolam]

That's what I'm hoping Felix!

[felixthelogchopper]

That's what I'm hoping Felix!

 

Treequip can probably explain it better than me but the main issue is the confusion between self employed and sub contractor. Self employment is really only a status for Tax purposes. Being freelance doesn't make somebody a sub-contractor for the purposes of insurance. I worked as self-employed for all my admittedly short time in Arb. In that time, I provided my own tools sometimes, my vehicle sometimes but I was always working under the insurance of the guy whose job it was. The only insurance I had was PL solely for my own jobs and motor insurance for my truck.