Paperwork awareness!

[Ian C]

I quite agree with a lot of what you say Dean but you just cannot beat the system, also remember if you send your lad to collage they will at some point i imagine inspect you as a business, LOLER, PL,EL chipper etc. I had a lad contact me last year asking for a bit of casual work, no probs i said cash in hand the odd day now and again, was only fetching and carrying not using any machinery, didnt tell me he had enroled at collage and i had to give him a min of 3 days every week! i only found out when askham bryan called me to book an appointment to inspect me!! cheeky little git.

[Highland Forestry]

obviously answer 2

 

No offense Matt it's just the way it is.

H&S is being run by local government types , for local government types.

We all have a duty of care to ensure adequate H&S, this is not new , this has been the case since the start of civilisation, what is new is the paper BS that goes with it.

 

REMEMBER , GARDEN IS AN ANAGRAM OF DANGER

 

The only good thing about this unnessessary paper work is that it keeps pulp prices up:scared1:

 

How many times do you hear people say they complete R.A's the night before a job! One person was shocked recently when someone changed the R.A half way through the day as the conditions changed , he'd never seen this before.

 

R.A's etc. are fine if they are used correctly , not when they are just there to tick boxes, you might as well print them on Andrex:blushing:

 

Good job I've not had a drink tonight or I would have got on my soapbox and had a rant about H&S.

 

 

I missed all of this last night as I was on a call-out till 4am!!

 

Stew - I'm unsure what my answer would be in all honesty - I hope it would be number 3 but number 2 is certainly up there with it!!

 

Regarding RA's - I/we do regularly change them half way through a job if conditions change or the situation changes - quite often depending on weather or terrain for example - can't speak for anyone else but like you say, the risk assessments are there to be used, not just to tick boxes and keep paperwork tidy.

 

 

Somebody told me once that all the paperwork is to create paper trails which are in turn auditable - i.e. somebody can look at your operation and rip it apart just through the paper trails.

 

Soapbox and drink time!! hehe

[Mesterh]

highland should i start a thread!

do you fill out paper work to 1) protect your employees. 2)to cover your own ass!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but adding 3) protecting my employees, my business and my ass!

that would make sense that was my original point.

 

 

Number 2 any subbie's are all ready protected by me not asking them to doing anything that they arent trained for, arent capable of or arent happy with.

 

All the kit is safe regrdless wether someone else has looked at it or not.

 

How safe is your truck? does it get inspected more than the required 12 month MOT? I bet a lot more tree surgeons die on the way to and from work than they do on the job(just my opinion btw)

 

Reading through the hse stats on another thread it looked like there were no fatalities of tree surgeons due to falls from height, it was more like death by chainsaw.

Maybe the saws should be inspected by a competent person every 6 months

[Mesterh]

I only started this thread to see if it was only a few of us that werent sure if we were following all the right procedures, and possibly come up with a solution to try and help out.

 

Looking at the votes 75% ish dont know if we are following the right path for either the sake of our employee's or the sake of our business, now that seems like a hell of a lot of confused people out there.

 

The very last thing I would ever want is to see someone injured or killed regardless whether it was my mistake or not. I never worry about myself while working but do about others, I would always volunteer to do the "dodgy" jobs.

 

 

The second would be for me to lose my business due to making a mistake in filling out some form that some solicitor could go to town on.

 

The third would be to waste my time filling in forms that I didnt have

 

I have had chainsaw cuts, I have had falls and I have been hit by flying branches/timber etc oh and I have been electrocuted! but on no occasion would filling in a piece of paper work prevented these happening.

 

I think we all need to make sure our arse's are covered, shoot me down for that comment if you like thats my stance on things.

[Stephen Blair]

i think there are some folk in this world that shouldnt be aloud chainsaws and machinery, if someone turns up looking for a job with one arm coz he cut it off with a pole pruner, then sorry mate you arent getting a job. he who does the best paperwork wins, i used to send a safety officer to site before me too fill out all the forms tick all the boxes give him 30quid and in we would walk, never even seeing the site. and these were 5 star safety rating factorys.

[David Humphries]

I have had chainsaw cuts, I have had falls and I have been hit by flying branches/timber etc oh and I have been electrocuted! but on no occasion would filling in a piece of paper work prevented these happening.

 

I think we all need to make sure our arse's are covered, shoot me down for that comment if you like thats my stance on things.

 

 

 

Maybe it's worth deconstructing and scrutinising one of the above incidences, strip it right down and really see if legislation or lack of it was at the very core and was the main contributing factor of the "accident"

 

What is the common denominator?

 

If you really mean to help, use this oportunity to case study, at the very worst, you might learn from it, best case it may stop someone with less experience, from letting it happening to them.

[Mesterh]

What is the common denominator?

 

It was me making mistakes.

 

A quick run through of mistakes that caused the accidents are.

 

4 chainsaws cuts,

First using a saw (020 which was mine) that wasnt running correctly had to blip throttle so it didnt cut out, reached over to removed a branch I had cut hand went accross chain, bit of a scar not much.

 

Second using 020 on ground cutting up logs for firewood, kickback straight into middle finger left hand severed nerves.

 

Third 020 sectioning a tree, spikes on roped in spikes slipped while using 020 (both hands on saw this time) instinct grabbed branch with left hand saw came down onto it severed tendons, nice big scar.

 

Forth using 020 again flicking branches away from power lines used too much force saw swung around and caught left side of thigh on left leg, type A on only, another scar nothing major.

 

Electrocution 11Kv lines epecormic getting caught up touched line and back of calf, John Trevouler dance for a few seconds.

 

Brash and timber, nothing major no serious injury just the odd time when rigging and limbs have spun around and clobbered me, probably due to too much fiction and groundie couldnt lower quick enough.

 

Falls broken ribs after free climbing a willow to remove a hanger (I had used a rope and harness previously to prune the tree) fell about 6 foot but landed sideways on limb after the branch I had hold of snapped.

 

I am sure there have been many near misses that dont register but could have been nasty.

 

Now all of these accidents happened a longtime ago but after I had at least 5 years experience of climbing.

The way I see them it was all my fault and I wouldnt/couldnt blame anyone else

 

Now you can call me an idiot and that I should seek another career but well I am honest about things, I know plenty of others that have too much pride to admit to what they have done in the past.

 

I understood all the risk's involed that lead to the accidents, nothing was hidden from me and I wasnt put under any pressure that could cause them.

 

I Cant you see how any form filling would have prevented those, but then again I may just be blind to it.

[Highland Forestry]

It was me making mistakes.

 

A quick run through of mistakes that caused the accidents are.

 

4 chainsaws cuts,

First using a saw (020 which was mine) that wasnt running correctly had to blip throttle so it didnt cut out, reached over to removed a branch I had cut hand went accross chain, bit of a scar not much.

 

Second using 020 on ground cutting up logs for firewood, kickback straight into middle finger left hand severed nerves.

 

Third 020 sectioning a tree, spikes on roped in spikes slipped while using 020 (both hands on saw this time) instinct grabbed branch with left hand saw came down onto it severed tendons, nice big scar.

 

Forth using 020 again flicking branches away from power lines used too much force saw swung around and caught left side of thigh on left leg, type A on only, another scar nothing major.

 

Electrocution 11Kv lines epecormic getting caught up touched line and back of calf, John Trevouler dance for a few seconds.

 

Brash and timber, nothing major no serious injury just the odd time when rigging and limbs have spun around and clobbered me, probably due to too much fiction and groundie couldnt lower quick enough.

 

Falls broken ribs after free climbing a willow to remove a hanger (I had used a rope and harness previously to prune the tree) fell about 6 foot but landed sideways on limb after the branch I had hold of snapped.

 

I am sure there have been many near misses that dont register but could have been nasty.

 

Now all of these accidents happened a longtime ago but after I had at least 5 years experience of climbing.

The way I see them it was all my fault and I wouldnt/couldnt blame anyone else

 

Now you can call me an idiot and that I should seek another career but well I am honest about things, I know plenty of others that have too much pride to admit to what they have done in the past.

 

I understood all the risk's involed that lead to the accidents, nothing was hidden from me and I wasnt put under any pressure that could cause them.

 

I Cant you see how any form filling would have prevented those, but then again I may just be blind to it.

 

 

You're lucky to be alive! lol

 

Not being funny or anything, but looking at it from an employers point of view, if you came to me with a wrap sheet like that there's no way I could entertain using you for any work, not even for sub-contracting.

 

The general idea I get is you know the rules and the good practice, but chose not to use it which was your decision and then you paid the price for it.

 

All of the incidents listed above could have IMO been avoided with propper paperwork, because you would have identified risks involved and also identified controls of those risks or alternative work methods to make sure the incidents did not happen..

 

That is of course if you pay attention to your own risk assessment and the conditions you set in it.

[kipperfeet]

Reading this, i just wondered how many have actually read the AIS and INDG publications that help us understand all these legal requirements for running a proffessional industry.

 

Lifting operations and lifting equipment regs is a sub section of provision and use of work equipment regs and came out in 1992. That is 17 years ago!

 

I agree that if you read to much in to and let it stress you, it does seem like you would spend all your time doing paper work and none doing tree work or earning a living.

 

Actually, it is fairly basic when you get your head around it to put it in to place. Once that is done then simple things like risk assessments (under MHSWA) take seconds and loler checks by a competent person on high level of wear items (friction hitch chord) takes five minutes at the end of the week to document.

 

I could tell you what to look for and what kind of rope you are using and how it works and designate you to be the competent person, and then it is your resposibility to check it and document it weekly, keep the records and use them as proof if need be. (so long as the person is confident that they know the difference between 9mm chord designed for high friction use and washing line!) It just stops that tatty bit of rope that has been used for climbing for two years, then towed the van out of field, then lowered lumps of wood off and then climbed on again failing with your life on it.

 

Yes, there is quite a bit if you tot it up to worry about, but once its done, it is just ticking boxes. (i don't profess to know it all by the way)

 

I have tons of information on the area of legislation and to be honest, not all is black and white but most is and there is a lot of info out there. If i had two days spare i would write an article on it but i havn't got two spare days.

 

Thankfully, loads of other people already have!

 

In my opinion, getting this simple stuff in place is the difference between a proffesional tree gang and pikeys.

 

What the pikeys dont care about is that one day they will get killed doing dangerous things for £50.

Bugger that for £50.

 

Simple guides to LOLER and PUWER regs are on the aie website and at all the trade fairs on the hse stands and take two minutes to read.

 

Just my opinion:bored:

[kipperfeet]

Forgot to mention in the last post, as i was boring myself to sleep - LOLER regs are a subsection of the PUWER regs and have been IN FORCE since 1998.

 

THAT IS 11 YEARS!!!

 

Work at height regs came in to force in 2005. Might be worth having a read of that to. Doesn't say much really, just that you must be able to justify what you are doing and have risk assessed it in a nut shell.

 

enjoy.