Anyone know anything about SS flue pipe?

[Stereo]

I need to change around the flue on my Esse range. The installer put in too much black pipe in my view. It goes up about 1.5mr, then 45 right, then another meter or so, then 45 left and then to SS and up through the roof. I think they should have gone to SS after the first bend. The main problems are that the steel in the higher section of black gets too cool and I get loads of creosote whereas there is none in the SS above. Secondly, I cannot for the life of me get a brush around the second bend from the access cover at the base of the flue. I want to put in a 45 with door at the first bend then convert to SS from there up.

 

But, I'm not sure what brand the SS I have is. It's about 3 years old. Will any make fit to it? Is there a way to identify it? Before anyone says I shouldn't mess with it, I've already had it in bits to clean it and seal with cement as my Hetas installer did not do this and left gaping gaps around the joints all the way up.

[Alycidon]

Hi, I am an Esse cooker and stove dealer so may be able to advise.

 

From your description of the flue it sounds perfectly fine from a design point of view, we would normally powder coat the SS twin wall parts to match the stove or room decor.

 

I suspect that this cooker is a boiler model, perhaps you could confirm that before I (or others) get involved in length explanations that may not be relevant.

 

You are burning wood, hence the creosote, this is deposited into the flue when the temperature in the firebox is not high enough to ignite it. All wood when burnt gives of creosote in gas form, this is usually combusted in the firebox. This is where the creosote is coming from, there may be several reasons why.

 

Which model of cooker do you have ?.

How old is it, did you buy it new?.

Did the Esse dealer do the install if new?.

What are you feeding it with and at what moisture content?, this is CRITICAL.

Roughly how long is the flue ?

Other than the two mentioned are there any other bends in the flue system?.

Do you have higher buildings or higher trees than your flue exit within 60 yards?.

 

 

There are many varied makes of twin wall insulated SS flue system, none are interchangeable so if you want to change it I would strongly advise that you get a Hetas registered engineer in to do it, if you have an issue with the one who put it in take that up with your cooker supplier unless you appointed the installer yourself. If he is Hetas (and he should be) you can register a complaint with Hetas, they will follow up with engineers inspection of the installation which if found to be not satisfactory they will take action against the installer. Your installer should have issued you with a sign off safety certificate, he is allowed to sign off his work as safe to use assuming he is qualified. In short , no sign off, no insurance cover. Mess with what he has put in and you may invalidate your cover.

 

Twin wall pipe is not sealed between sections with heat proof sealant between the sections ( well the higher quality ones I sell are not), the black vit pipe leading from the cooker to the twin wall will usually be sealed especially where they connect to the appliance.

 

To try and id your twin wall look at the Poujoulat web site, that is a very high quality flue system used by a lot of Esse dealer installers. A 45 deg twin wall elbow will be a different length to the vit pipe elbow, so its not as simple as it may seem. Maybe a better idea would be to put a door onto the second elbow, this would involve changing that elbow.

 

Using the correct nylon flexible sweeps rods you should be able to get round these bends easily, you are allowed up to four 45 deg bands in any single flue system. Brush size should be 1 inch bigger that the flue, so a 7 inch brush. You will not be able to get traditional 'drain rods' up a flue like yours.

 

Please confirm answers to my questions and we will try and resolve your problems, but it is NOT a flue issue unless the appliance is not pulling. The installer should have done a smoke test as the last part of the install to test the flue pull.

 

A

[Stereo]

Which model of cooker do you have ?.

 

W23

 

How old is it, did you buy it new?.

 

3 Years or so, yes.

 

Did the Esse dealer do the install if new?.

 

Yes.

 

 

What are you feeding it with and at what moisture content?, this is CRITICAL.

 

Mainly hardwood, 20% or less.

 

Roughly how long is the flue ?

 

At a guess, 8m

 

Other than the two mentioned are there any other bends in the flue system?.

 

Nope

 

Do you have higher buildings or higher trees than your flue exit within 60 yards?.

 

Yes, farmhouse next door.

 

I have looked at various elbows etc and it seems to me that the problem I will have is that a door elbow is longer than a standard one. I just need to get a brush up there. I have a standard drain rod set and I also layed out on a fancy nylon flexy set with a brush with a ball on the end but no matter what I try, I can't get the thing around the second bend. If I could, I wouldn't have an issue other than my general complaints about the W23's tolerance of moisture which was not what they told me when I bought it (under 25% was what is quoted in the hand book). This will jam it up in no time.

The issue is that I am pushing the rod up and the first 45 angles it downwards as it slides up the 45 degree section. So as it hits the second 45, it's trying to go down and it just wont go around the bend. I did buy a wheel attachment but the thread is drain rod size and won't replace the ball on the posh brush I have.

 

Do you know if it is acceptable to have an access door put in to the second piece of vit? This is the bit at 45 degrees between the 2 bends. If I could put an access in this I could get around that second bend. I was thinking of just getting it replaced with a length that has an access door in it.

 

I don't recall them doing a smoke test to be honest but they may have.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Stereo

[Stereo]

This is what I have:

 

Chimney sweep brush, chimney rods, flue brush

[Goaty]

At the risk of been told off. I didnt want to spend more on flue than woodboiler/stove so hunted round local engineering specialist and got 2metre plus of stainless steel pipe, an offcut for £35. Bearing in mind the black enamel type can be £35 for 500mm lengths. I consider mine safer as there are no joints inside my home as I have a simple straight up flue.. Whilst regulations are there for good reason, I think it leads to ripoffs sometimes. But good to be informed by the likes of Alycidon because its the laypersons lack of info that lets them get away with it.

[Stereo]

Hmm, been reading up on this and I have found a 45 bend with a door which looks the same size as my standard ones. This is on stovesonline who interestingly say 'We recommend that up to 1000mm of single skin flue pipe can be used, with an absolute upper limit of 1500mm. The reason for this is that single skin flue pipe is uninsulated and so will have the effect of warming the room but also of cooling the flue gases. When flue gases cool chimney desposits increase and the risk of chimney fire.'

 

I've got a 900mm vertical piece, then a 45, then a 700mm diagonal and then another 45 before it goes to the SS converter. Overall this is 2000mm of steel single wall pipe and it's always the top of this, around the second bend which gets clagged up. The SS pipe is a doddle to clean, just dust which falls away but the top of the vitreous pipe gets that sticky goo on it. I know this from dismantling it last summer to seal the joints (part of regs I think, this was not done at all on mine.). The top bend needed attacking with a chisel to get the stuff off.

 

I just think they used too much single wall to save a few quid.

[Alycidon]

W23. so wood fired with a boiler, cooker warranty is 3 years so it may still be covered. Have a chat with Suzanne at Esse to confirm.

 

The problem is the temperature of the water returning to the cooker, it is not allowing the boiler/cooker to get up to temperature, hence the creosote. There is now an Esse unit that will allow the cooker to get up to temperature before it allows any water to come back into the cooker. I am not in the showroom this afternoon but from memory it is called a Cooker Control unit, it fits into the water pipes external to the cooker. Call Esse and discuss the issue with David Randleson, he is their chief engineer, tell him that Geoff at Home Farm Stoves has put you in touch. I know that you are not one of my customers.

 

While your wood is not perfect it is acceptable if below 20% which is what Esse advise as the maximum permitted moisture level. 8m is an excellent length for the flue but the higher building may be causing downdrafts when the wind blows from that direction. This can be cured by fitting an anti down draft cowl or a rotating cowl, first one is preferable. Downdrafts cause lack of pull and smokeing back into the room, not tarring up.

 

The cooker itself will also be tarred up, this needs removing, there are a number of products in the market whose fumes will chrysalis the tar when burnt in the firebox. They can then be brushed out in the usual manner.

 

Door elbow should be the same length as the one coming out unless a different brand is used.

 

Esse take the installation of their products very seriously, any shortcomings should be initially taken up with the supplying dealer and if not resolved then Hetas and Esse.

 

No reason why you cannot have two access doors but I suggest you invest £50 and get a sweep in to do the job at least the first time and watch how he does it. Looks like your rods are fine, not seen a brush with a knob though. mine has no knob but I cant really see that as the problem, what diameter is the brush you are putting up?. Should be 7 inch.

 

I feel that of you alter the flue as installed and signed off ( I assume it was signed off) then it would need signing off again as safe to use.

 

 

On the other post of using stainless steel pipe to replace Vit enamelled pipe. SS single wall pipe is perfectly acceptable if of the correct diameter and is used in some stove installations, usually it is spray painted to match the appliance. You cannot penetrate walls or ceilings with it and it still needs to be signed off as being safe to use. It will though do the job fine.

 

Hope that helps, I would recommend you now talk to David at Esse and agree a way forward, then talk to your suppling Esse dealer.

 

Thanks

 

A

[Stereo]

Thanks for the advice, the brush I have is 7", it's really just the angle it's hitting the second bend at.

 

When we had the install done, we did have the option of going straight up although it would have meant some minor building work. I now realise this would have been far better than the solution we have. I'm thinking what I may do is get the whole thing professionally re-done so it's a stright up and down.

 

I have looked before for that return valve but couldn't find it on the Esse site. Maybe need to speak to them about it. We do have a stat on our thermal store so that it's kept at 50 degrees min by a gas boiler but I'm not sure if the water at the bottom is that hot and also it may lose some heat in the pipes I guess.

 

I'm just a bit narked with the original installer as I could have done a better job myself and I don't really want them back messing with it. Hetas or not. I do take the point re. insurance though so will get someone else to look at it for me.

[niftysteve]

go on the hetas site and look up your local installer

what area are you in as there are a few people on here that are Hetas registered me being one of them

[Stereo]

I'm in South Devon.