job in norwich starts tomorrow, first to ring me gets the work.

[Hodge]

Surely it would be better if the arb world had a recognised governing body that all arb firms and workers were a part of, like the FMB or corgi/gas safe. Part of it would be to have the correct insurance, there are to many people that don't know what the correct insurance cover is. It seems we all have different views on the insurance subject. I have heard of company's that use subcontractors to insist the subcontractor has their own insurance even though they are being employed on a daily basis to carry out work for the said company, this way the company can avoid having employers liabillity. some say this is correct some say not?? What happens in the event of an incident.??

[Hodge]

Maybe an insurance company representative could answer these question on the forum.

[Andy Collins]

Many years ago, I worked for an AAAC, in a self employed capacity. One of the stipulations ere was to have your own PLI, so in the event of a claim the buck could be passed down to the workers. This was put in place due to the insistence of the companies insurance policy. No one was employed by the company at that time, all self employed, and all required to have PLI if we wanted to work. If only there were a forum where you could find out this kind of information.

Ditto the point on an insurance company coming on here and giving the facts from their point of view, after all they are quick enough to take our money and sit back until a claim comes in.

[muppetlab]

Most employers are required by the law to insure against liability for injury or disease to their employees arising out of their employment.

Do I need employers' liability insurance for all the people who work for me?

You are only required by law to have employers liability insurance for people who you employ under a contract of service or apprenticeship.

Whether or not you need employers liability insurance for someone who works for you depends on the terms of your contract with them. This contract can be spoken, written or implied. It does not matter whether you usually call someone an employee or self-employed or what their tax status is. Whether you choose to call your contract a contract of employment or a contract for services is largely irrelevant. What matters is the real nature of your relationship with the people who work for you and the nature and degree of control that you have over the work they do.

The following paragraphs may help give you some indication of whether or not a person is an employee under the Employers Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act. However, it is for you to satisfy yourself of the status of the persons working for you and if you have any doubts, you should seek legal advice.

You may need employers liability insurance for someone who works for you where:

* you deduct national insurance and income tax from the money you pay them;

* you have the right to control where and when they work and how they do it;

* you supply their work materials and equipment;

* you have a right to any profit your workers make although you may choose to share this with them through commission, performance pay or shares in the company;

* you require that person only to deliver the service and they cannot employ a substitute if they are unable to do the work; or

* they are treated in the same way as other employees, for example, they do the same work under the same conditions as someone else you employ.

You may not need employers liability insurance for people who work for you where:

* they do not work exclusively for you (for example, if they operate as an independent contractor);

* they supply most of the equipment and materials they need to do the job;

* they are clearly in business for their own personal benefit;

* they can employ a substitute when they are unable to do the work themselves;

* you do not deduct income tax or national insurance. However, even if someone is self-employed for tax purposes they may be classed as an employee for other reasons and you may still need employers liability insurance to cover them.

 

Clear as mud. Id say that unless you have nothing to do with the job apart from quoting and arranging a contractor then you would be fine. If its your job and you get someone to help you whilst you are also there working i'd say you need it as its not their sole job but you have "employed" them for extra help.

[Andy Collins]

You "may" or you "may not", hardly a definitive answer is it. It's a bit like saying "if you feel up to it" or "if you like". Typical vague response, copy/pasted I take it from some legal eagle? No wonder there is so much confusion when they leave it so open to misinterpretation.

[muppetlab]

Reference: HSE40, Employers Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969: A Guide for Employers', free for a single copy. This can be downloaded online at the following web address:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf

[David Goss]

You "may" or you "may not", hardly a definitive answer is it. It's a bit like saying "if you feel up to it" or "if you like". Typical vague response, copy/pasted I take it from some legal eagle? No wonder there is so much confusion when they leave it so open to misinterpretation.

 

If it was clear and understandable then they wouldn't be able to screw you over if something ever did go wrong. Has anyone ever had an easy time getting an insurance claim? Our confusion and misinterpretation of these mind boggling documents are exactly what they want.

Personally I have no idea what is required and have always understood it as if some company hires me to work for them then I am working under their insurance. I sooo hope this is correct because that's what I have always understood, albeit vaguely...

[likeitorlumpit]

If it was clear and understandable then they wouldn't be able to screw you over if something ever did go wrong. Has anyone ever had an easy time getting an insurance claim? Our confusion and misinterpretation of these mind boggling documents are exactly what they want.

Personally I have no idea what is required and have always understood it as if some company hires me to work for them then I am working under their insurance. I sooo hope this is correct because that's what I have always understood, albeit vaguely...

 

Thats the way I roll

If I'm telling you what to do and when to do it then you are my responsibility and I expect you to behave similar to my direct employed workers and join in with all H&S talks etc etc. It's just that you earn more as I'm not responsible for finding you work 48 weeks a year and can usually tell me when you want to work.

[Rupe]

Hodge

"I have heard of company's that use subcontractors to insist the subcontractor has their own insurance even though they are being employed on a daily basis to carry out work for the said company, this way the company can avoid having employers liabillity. some say this is correct some say not?? What happens in the event of an incident.?? "

 

 

I think this is one if the massive misunderstandings with insurance. Some think that employers liability insurance is there to cover damage done BY their employees, so if they dont have it they insist on "subbies" having PLI to cover there own damages.

 

This is a huge mistake! EL is to cover damage/injury done TO an employee, its to safeguard the employees and includes those self employed hired in for the day to work for that firm. Iin fact it safegaurds the employer aswell)

 

EL does not cover any damage/injury that employees (self employed/subbies etc) do to the public or the clients.

 

SO my company has PL, and any damge/injury caused to the public/client (any third party basically) by me, or any of the people working for me or under my control is covered. (regardless of weather I have EL or not)

 

I am then covered by my EL for any damage/injury caused to my employees (self employed, subbies etc.) while they are working for me, so if they get injured I am covered for any liability for their injuries, that does not definatly mean they get a pay out for those injuries, it just means my liability is covered.

 

So this is why there is no need to have multiple PL on one job, the main contractors should have it covered. Its illegal for that main contractor not to have EL but if he doesnt have it then no amount of extra PL will help, and he is only going to be in trouble when a worker injures themselves.

 

I think the misunderstanding is from EL. It means Employers Liability, NOT employees liablity, therefore it is not there to cover damage done BY employees, and therefore cannot be replaced by those employees having their own insurance, because when we talk about "subbies" with their own insurance we are speaking about PL.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Rupe