afghanistan

[MattyF]

There's a common misconception the Russians were fighting the Mujahadeen, they weren't, the Russians were fighting the CIA who were arming, training and funding the Mujahadeen......people like Osama Bin Laden for example.

 

The reason Russia eventually pulled out of Afghanistan was because they realised they could never beat an endlessly US trained, supplied and funded Mujahadeen.

Very true Tim but we were also fighting the cold war against Russia , them being defeated led to independence of many country's as they could not focus there grip.

Looking at a map of afgahnastan today and all the country's surrounding were all former soviet controlled it would not take them much effort at all to regain control , look what happened in Georgia... Over in days.

[arbogrunt]

the fact is, when we pull out of Afghan, they will fight us somewhere else. Its nothing to do with gas, oil or Afghans rights...they are our enemies and they will kill us wherever and whenever they can. Fact. Are we winning, No.

[felixthelogchopper]

the fact is, when we pull out of Afghan, they will fight us somewhere else. Its nothing to do with gas, oil or Afghans rights...they are our enemies and they will kill us wherever and whenever they can. Fact. Are we winning, No.

 

May I suggest Catford then? Much easier commute than Kandahar and any damage would probably go un-noticed.

[arbogrunt]

you may not be that far off mate!

[felixthelogchopper]

you may not be that far off mate!

 

Make it Barking and we could do half days on the train

[Lee Winger]

Very true Tim but we were also fighting the cold war against Russia , them being defeated led to independence of many country's as they could not focus there grip.

Looking at a map of afgahnastan today and all the country's surrounding were all former soviet controlled it would not take them much effort at all to regain control , look what happened in Georgia... Over in days.

 

Islamic countrys would not be such a pushover Matty take Chechnya, most of the old Soviet countrys in Asia are Islamic

[Lee Winger]

the fact is, when we pull out of Afghan, they will fight us somewhere else. Its nothing to do with gas, oil or Afghans rights...they are our enemies and they will kill us wherever and whenever they can. Fact. Are we winning, No.

 

They aren't my enemy, clever people pull the strings in this world, for there own financial gain and power Muslim clerics are not those people, those that control the money control the governments.....

[LancsMike]

I had mates at school who trained in Pakistan this was 20 years ago!! We used to take the piss out of Imran and fisal with there summer holiday story's of firing AK 47's and RPG's but I think these boys looking back on it now were telling the truth , I'm not anti Muslim but there has always been a difference between them and us.

Being an invading force just gives them more reason for a holy war which has been a long time in planning.

Afgahnastan may of been a training ground but bin laden was not found there !!

 

I think you're missing the point just because he was pinpointed and killed in Pakistan doesn't mean he wasn't in Afghanistan. It is well documented through several sources and books that Bin Laden was using Afghanistan through the Taliban as a training station for Global Jihad, just like he had also travelled to Bosnia in the 90's and the Sudan and helped finance Extremist Governments there too [ 2 Books by Ahmed Rashid cover this in a lot of detail in particular ]

 

If we stand back they'd have said we are cowards, so its a case of damned if we do or don't. Fact of the matter is that we did have to get involved and it wasn't due to Oil or Gas, to be honest thats more a biproduct of our intervention through Oil Conglomerates. Our State policy was to kick the Taliban out [Which we did] and the reason they came back was because of the US focusing on Iraq which we all known was a huge mistake, but also because in particular Rumsfeld gave money to the Warlords of Afghanistan thinking that would solve the problem and mean NATO and the US wouldn't have to get involved - the reality of that is that the Taliban's very exsistence came into being because of the Warlord Culture of Afghanistan, out of desperation the people of Afghanistan turned to the Taliban as a means of restoring Law and Order. So by funding the Warlords it gave the Taliban an excuse to come back into the fold and the people turned back to them again to '' fix their problems '' - Now the Taliban are undermining that by fighting an endless War with us and the ANA. The ANA are taking over from us and we haven't lost the War either as was mentioned earlier in this thread - we were and still are peacekeeping in Afghanistan and training the ANA and ANP up to take over from us because ultimately it isn't our job to fight their war for them, we know that and they know that.

 

Afghanistan's Stability is a lot more important than what a lot of people think with the very old, boring and asinine argument that it's about Oil and Gas, it isn't. Afghanistan's security is part of a much bigger problem in Asia, if Afghanistan falls back into total chaos like its Civil War days you have the Pakistani Taliban controlling the Federal Tribal Areas which have become so violent and lawless even the Pakistani Military with their numbers will not venture in. If that spills over the border it would be empowering the Insurgency more and more to spill into more countries and you have something akin to a Domino effect of Extremism and violence. The problem itself stems from the earlier day of the Cold War with Russia and the endless financing of the Mujhadein through the Pakistani ISI. The ISI sponsored and still do have a symbiotic relationship with Justifiable Jihad due to the war in Kashmir but like all monsters, it got out of control and is spreading like Wildfire due to growing numbers of Madrassa's rather than formal education in Pakistan, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATA] and Afghanistan.

 

To sit back and keep quoting the Anti Govt chants of Oil, Gas and Corporate greed is ignorance for ignorance sake. Have a look at books, other news medium's and read up on Wahabi and Extremist Islam. The problem is a lot more terrifying than people would admit and many in the Anti-War crowd would rather have you believe its NATO picking on '' poor dirt farmers '' than an organised, violent and very hateful group of extremists hiding amongst civilians.

 

And if you still don't believe that, look at what happened in our Country with 7/7, or The Moscow Theater Siege, or the Massacre at Beslan, or the ongoing killings in Sudan and Somalia due to lawlessness and Extremism.

Edited April 3, 2012 by LancsMike

[easy-lift guy]

I think you're missing the point just because he was pinpointed and killed in Pakistan doesn't mean he wasn't in Afghanistan. It is well documented through several sources and books that Bin Laden was using Afghanistan through the Taliban as a training station for Global Jihad, just like he had also travelled to Bosnia in the 90's and the Sudan and helped finance Extremist Governments there too [ 2 Books by Ahmed Rashid cover this in a lot of detail in particular ]

 

If we stand back they'd have said we are cowards, so its a case of damned if we do or don't. Fact of the matter is that we did have to get involved and it wasn't due to Oil or Gas, to be honest thats more a biproduct of our intervention through Oil Conglomerates. Our State policy was to kick the Taliban out [Which we did] and the reason they came back was because of the US focusing on Iraq which we all known was a huge mistake, but also because in particular Rumsfeld gave money to the Warlords of Afghanistan thinking that would solve the problem and mean NATO and the US wouldn't have to get involved - the reality of that is that the Taliban's very exsistence came into being because of the Warlord Culture of Afghanistan, out of desperation the people of Afghanistan turned to the Taliban as a means of restoring Law and Order. So by funding the Warlords it gave the Taliban an excuse to come back into the fold and the people turned back to them again to '' fix their problems '' - Now the Taliban are undermining that by fighting an endless War with us and the ANA. The ANA are taking over from us and we haven't lost the War either as was mentioned earlier in this thread - we were and still are peacekeeping in Afghanistan and training the ANA and ANP up to take over from us because ultimately it isn't our job to fight their war for them, we know that and they know that.

 

Afghanistan's Stability is a lot more important than what a lot of people think with the very old, boring and asinine argument that it's about Oil and Gas, it isn't. Afghanistan's security is part of a much bigger problem in Asia, if Afghanistan falls back into total chaos like its Civil War days you have the Pakistani Taliban controlling the Federal Tribal Areas which have become so violent and lawless even the Pakistani Military with their numbers will not venture in. If that spills over the border it would be empowering the Insurgency more and more to spill into more countries and you have something akin to a Domino effect of Extremism and violence. The problem itself stems from the earlier day of the Cold War with Russia and the endless financing of the Mujhadein through the Pakistani ISI. The ISI sponsored and still do have a symbiotic relationship with Justifiable Jihad due to the war in Kashmir but like all monsters, it got out of control and is spreading like Wildfire due to growing numbers of Madrassa's rather than formal education in Pakistan, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATA] and Afghanistan.

 

To sit back and keep quoting the Anti Govt chants of Oil, Gas and Corporate greed is ignorance for ignorance sake. Have a look at books, other news medium's and read up on Wahabi and Extremist Islam. The problem is a lot more terrifying than people would admit and many in the Anti-War crowd would rather have you believe its NATO picking on '' poor dirt farmers '' than an organised, violent and very hateful group of extremists hiding amongst civilians.

 

And if you still don't believe that, look at what happened in our Country with 7/7, or The Moscow Theater Siege, or the Massacre at Beslan, or the ongoing killings in Sudan and Somalia due to lawlessness and Extremism.

 

OBL was in Pakistan for most of the time he was on the run staying at I believe at least 12 different safe houses, and with 4 wifes and time to father two kids during this time he seemed to manage fairly well. As long as he could continue to pay off the elected officials in both Afghanistan/Pakistan he was fine. Them pesky Predator drones came in and started to wipe out his top aides and support and Pakistan was being served noticed that it would no longer be business as usuall. Mike I do concure that both countries are very strategic and have been for some time, who will be in charge after the dust has settled is the big question:sneaky2:

easy-lift guy

[LancsMike]

OBL was in Pakistan for most of the time he was on the run staying at I believe at least 12 different safe houses, and with 4 wifes and time to father two kids during this time he seemed to manage fairly well. As long as he could continue to pay off the elected officials in both Afghanistan/Pakistan he was fine. Them pesky Predator drones came in and started to wipe out his top aides and support and Pakistan was being served noticed that it would no longer be business as usuall. Mike I do concure that both countries are very strategic and have been for some time, who will be in charge after the dust has settled is the big question:sneaky2:

easy-lift guy

 

You're right mate, all we can do here in the Western World is try to understand the bigger picture better and make a more balanced and informed opinion. All we can do is try to improve the odds, ultimately the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan will decide their own future - I just hope its to better themselves rather than relapse back into violence and extremism.