tripping a hung tree

[ACUF]

This was clearly a premature break. Camera wasn't even watching, and instructor had already stated there would be another cut lower that would be the trigger. Very dangerous, and that wasn't a small tree by any stretch of the imagination. The straps were too small for that technique, with that height and weight on them. He needed that lower cut to be the trigger, which ended up triggering at the second cut instead. Guess its lucky they barely caught the break, and could it in slow mo, and see the guy at least looking for it to give,.. like it did.

 

law of observation I guess..

 

ACUF

[dadio]

PLEASE understand that this is all done ad lib, totally unsripted. I AM there to get a tree job done and there is very little time and energy put into taping. So I make an effort to explain clearly all the thinking and details of the techniques that go into getting the job done, which works well sometimes, on simple jobs. The more complicated a technique, the greater the chance that something (often many things) will go unmentioned or only partially explained. There is a lot of thinking that goes into this work.. hard to explain it all, especially ad libbing, which is the only way to make these vidoes on a low low budget.

 

That is why there is so little of this stuff presently available. Where are the training tapes for complex falling, rigging and cutting techniques.. THEY DON'T EXIST!! becasue they are cost prohibitive.

 

That said, I was very pleased with this particlar presentation and after reading the below quote, its clear to me that there has been a big miscommunication. I don't understand how you could have misinterprettd my statements, as you have. I have repsonded to your statements directly within the quote below.

 

 

 

 

You said:

watched the vid about 3 times now, at no point do you mention the root plate as a consideration when choosing the technique.

 

 

repsonse:

CHECK THAT A FOURTH time .. at 2:08 I saysomething to the effect that the amount of holding wood left up top has to be smaller when the tree is still attached to the stump, than after the first cut, when the butt is stuck in the ground.

 

then again at 3:32, I say something to the effect that the top strap will not slow the fall down much when the tree is still on the stump, but after the tree is off the stump, the fall will often be very slow and allow the faller to stand well clear before the piece splits and drops. This is where the insert video of the large ash splitting and falling after the faller has exitted.

 

 

 

You said:

you do however tell us about 6 times throughout the video how the technique allows you to make an escape so that you are nowhere near the trunk as it drops, then after the abysmal final and frantic cut at 4.52 that nearly leaves you as a double leg amputee you state at 5.18 in classic historical revisionism style that you "didn't need to escape"

 

 

response:

At 4:10 , after the plunge is finished and before the piece drops, I say, "now I can just cut the bottom strap and get out of here, (motioning my body towards an escape route), but in this situation I can just stand here and let it fall because she's just gonna hit the ground and fall the way she's leaning" That quote is nearly word for word.

 

 

You said:

the video is full of inconsistencies, contradiction and above all the technique you showed did not allow you to make any form of escape whatsoever, in fact if anything it actually put you in more danger as you had to position your body nearer the trunk to make the final undercut.

 

 

response:

So the point here is that in this situation, I don't need to escape because the tip will drop harmlessly away from me, because the top was already brushed out. That is what I said, and exactly what happened. There is no need to escape from the butt, as it will always drop straight down in all situations and species, except one!!! So standing close to the butt may look dangerous , but it is safeto stand nearby, just don't stand under it. I referred to the real danger coming after several cuts have been made and the piece is beginning to get straight, and the faller is required to stand under the canopy, and where the top can potentially fall in any direction. That is when escape is needed and when this cut gives the faller an advantage.

 

SO here's a question for you all...

What is the one situation where the butt will not drop straight down?

Anyone know?

[dadio]

With the rootplate being unstable, what if the roots on your side had been in tension & the whole thing twisted towards you as it snapped ?

 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about!!!! That root plate was still firmly attached to the ground....... :confused1:

[dadio]

Doug,

Are there any standards in the UK that apply to tripping a hung tree? If people do it, then there is a reason why they do it.. If it is an unsafe practice there must be reasons for that.. the ones you state below do not make sense to me.

 

The following are responses to your comments qupted below:

 

Controlling the top is often required when taking a tree of a house. not applicable in forrestry.. also note, that I can often set up and install a lowering line with throw line, never leaving the ground.

 

Yes there is control of the falling piece in as much as we control anything.. the butt will fall straight down as I've said already, in all situations except one. That is enough "control" to stay safe. To stand 3 feet away is safe, no matter how it looks to your eye.

 

Again let me say, the need for escape is not from the falling butt. The need for escape comes into play when the there is a risk of the top falling or a broken limb fallling overhead. That comes into play mostly as the piece gets straight.

 

The species will effect the way the top strap holds, but will have no effect on the falling direction of the butt.

 

No, this fall was on completely flat ground.

 

I agree with the first part of the floowing statement "The tree which is causing the hang has a massive effect on what happens to the hung stem. This is infinately variable". If the trees are limb-locked, you have to cut them free, before using this cut. However that is not infitely variable. they are either limb locked or not. also this technique is often used for taking trees off houses.

 

 

OMG, this gets more and more ridiculous every time you talk about it. You are making excuses for variable situations. Anyone with enough experience of felling trees within a crop will tell you that, yes people do do it, but nobody ever recommends this technique. Therefore it really is an "at you own risk" technique.

 

I reckon you might be the first to advertise it as a proven, safe method on an international video forum.

 

Whats the score about "controlling the top" with an over head lowering line? Why not do it propoerly with a lateral winch line, using approved cuts at the base of the tree? Surely that is quicker? Doesnt involve climbing and overhead rigging? And means you can control the pull on the stem from a remote position?

 

Where the risk of death lies? Well how is this for a start:

- Your section is falling from shoulder height or above in a direction and speed which you have little control.

- In the video and in every practical situation you have no time to exit the felling area using an esvcape route.

- All timber species will split and react differently under realistically unknown tensions and compressions. Even at the preliminary boring cut, not to mention the step cut underneath.

- Am I correct in thinking that your windblown tree is actually on an uphill incline (could be wrong) encouraging any piece to use gravity to come back towards the operator.

- The tree which is causing the hang has a massive effect on what happens to the hung stem. This is infinately variable.

 

Endless viable risks.

Sorry mate, but by making a public video you are opening yourself to real criticism. The reality is that there is a lot of people who are willing to go out and try this technique with renewed confidence and curiosity. Genuinely, you could have someones death on your conscience.

[dadio]

What can I say to this statement... This is the kind of rediculous statement that I found so frustrating in dealing with the Americans.. Clueless!!!

 

 

This was clearly a premature break. Camera wasn't even watching, and instructor had already stated there would be another cut lower that would be the trigger. Very dangerous, and that wasn't a small tree by any stretch of the imagination. The straps were too small for that technique, with that height and weight on them. He needed that lower cut to be the trigger, which ended up triggering at the second cut instead. Guess its lucky they barely caught the break, and could it in slow mo, and see the guy at least looking for it to give,.. like it did.

 

law of observation I guess..

 

ACUF

[Big 'Ammer]

SO here's a question for you all...

What is the one situation where the butt will not drop straight down?

Anyone know?

 

 

When the cutter has been sandwiched between the butt and the ground.

[Mark J]

That is why there is so little of this stuff presently available. Where are the training tapes for complex falling, rigging and cutting techniques.. THEY DON'T EXIST!!

 

What about Climbing Technique DVD - Treeworker.co.uk - although they are safe techniques...

Edited September 27, 2010 by Mark J

[John Barleycorn]

I have no idea what you are talking about!!!! That root plate was still firmly attached to the ground....... :confused1:

 

Oh, so you havent noticed that some stumps have a tendency to spring up once the trunk has been removed ?

The wind could have caused that tree to twist as it went over, or the tree it was hung against could have forced it to twist to the side. The tension in the roots could then be released when the trunk was removed.

[ACUF]

What can I say to this statement... This is the kind of rediculous statement that I found so frustrating in dealing with the Americans.. Clueless!!!

 

Physics know no geographic boundaries my friend. My first "clue" would have been to re-demonstrate this technique before posting it to a swath of arborist and foresters. I haven't even seen your other videos yet, so this is the first exposure I've seen, so I have no bias. I guess everyone has a different opinion of your method and the way it was carried out. Maybe we can all learn something from the feedback as well.

 

Be safe.

 

ACUF

[tommer9]

Clueless!!!

 

Crikey thats a bold statement to make about someone of who's working practice s and ability you have no knowledge.