New Defra figures on Air Pollution from " Domestic Combustion" show PM2.5 emissions fall by 4% in a period when stove sales rose by 40%.

[Peter 1955]

22 minutes ago, dan blocker said:

That’s all a load of bull! Reports last week that they were clearing ecologically important forests to feed the Thanet and Drax hunger for Canadian wood🤔. Only a matter of time before the supply chain from there is turned off and the government and general public wakes up and realises that’s the whole project is only viable(to investors) because it’s financed by public money - our money! The government as finally realised that gas power stations are a must because they can be turned on and off to meet electricity demand surges unlike wind and solar. 

Don't panic Mr Mainwaring! Round here ( twenty miles from Drax ) all the farms are growing Miscanthus to meet the demand for fuel, so we're alright there. Must go now, the Gloucester Old Spots are coming in to land, and they'll need refuelling. 😂

[Steven P]

15 hours ago, dan blocker said:

The government as finally realised that gas power stations are a must because they can be turned on and off to meet electricity demand surges unlike wind and solar. 

 

However when it comes to instant power supplies - short term at least - not a lot is quicker than pumped storage the 'hollow mountain'... it will still take some time to replace gas as a power source but a necessary evil to do so.

 

I'd be putting my money into something like Hydrogen - an easy conversion from fossil fuels and can be stored in existing facilities

[openspaceman]

1 hour ago, Steven P said:

However when it comes to instant power supplies - short term at least - not a lot is quicker than pumped storage the 'hollow mountain'... it will still take some time to replace gas as a power source but a necessary evil to do so.

Dinorwig pump storage is a marvel, was designed to absorb electrcity from a local nuclear plant and continues to provide peak lopping now but there are not many places else left for pumped storage.

1 hour ago, Steven P said:

I'd be putting my money into something like Hydrogen - an easy conversion from fossil fuels and can be stored in existing facilities

Hydrogen makes no sense to me, very low overall conversion back to power. Liquid air with heat storage is looking good though.

 

The thing is we will be dependent on natural gas for quite a while yet even when a lot more wind and solar PV comes online. My feeling is they will build cheap open cycle gas turbine generators rather than the far more expensive (and thermally efficient) combined cycle gas turbines we depend on for all loads now. The perceived wisdom is they will then only fire up at peak times, the baseload still being provided by nuclear, Drax (unless it gets canned), imports from France and Norway plus the existing CCGT fleet (some of which will be turned off when wind is good).

[Steven P]

Pretty much yes, but I am not sure of the alternatives to hydrogen at the moment if we want a liquid / gas fuel to replace gas. Heat storage sounds OK but over time you loose heat - not sure if that would work to capture solar power in the summer to use the next Easter? So I'd go for a system that can be stored longer, and one whose technology isn't too far off what we have now.

 

Having said that, so much going on out there that next week there might be something new and better announced

[openspaceman]

1 hour ago, Steven P said:

Pretty much yes, but I am not sure of the alternatives to hydrogen at the moment if we want a liquid / gas fuel to replace gas. Heat storage sounds OK but over time you loose heat - not sure if that would work to capture solar power in the summer to use the next Easter? So I'd go for a system that can be stored longer, and one whose technology isn't too far off what we have now.

 

Having said that, so much going on out there that next week there might be something new and better announced

The heat storage is in order to pass back the heat into the liquid air as it expands through a turbine, similarly the cold this generates is stored to cool the air as it is compressed. It is all part of an integrated system to maximise storage efficiency, it will never get close to a battery but should approach pumped hydro efficiency at a fraction of the capital cost. Pumped hydro only stores up to a day's usage.

 

Compressed air was stored and used to start big diesels, often on ships. When I visited the internal fire museum the owner said he went to pick up a diesel engine and its compressed air starter that hadn't been used for over ten years. When he set it up at the museum the air in the tank was still good enough to start the engine, not many batteries would manage that.

[Steven P]

Going to distract the conversation further here - used to look after a large gas engine, also started on compressed air. Amazing to see a piece of machinery as big as that starting so silently. I think the air vessel had to be insured and tested separately.

 

I reckon at the moment so long as the green energy is being captured and used or stored every little helps - it is often turned off due to demand or storage issues. Different demands though, heat stores, great if you are wanting heat, hydrogen or other liquids if you need the energy to be portable (ships, planes, and so on). In the middle there is the question of how do we store electricity for later use - batteries, heat or compressed air, or something like hydrogen. We are limited in this country for pumped storage locations and capacity. I'm not sure which is the best but just my gut reaction which I think is.