80 years ago today,

[Billhook]

 

[Billhook]

We had an old lorry driver who collected sugar beet for us and never occurred to us that he was a tail gunner in a Lancaster in WW2 . He actually was trained up as a pilot and instructor in Canada but on his return to UK he found that there were no positions for him as a pilot, but they needed people with a pilot’s capability to operate the new radar operated gun turrets which had to be rotated in a pattern to cover the sky behind. However this yawed the aircraft and made the crew feel sick so was unpopular. This system was well known but what was not so well known was the infrared signalling device to link with our own night fighters so that they did not shoot each other down

I took him down to the Lancaster at Coningsby and we wedged him back in the rear turret. He was quite a large man. I did see a tear in his eye

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Billhook

[manco]

80 yrs ago today, it was late may 1943

[petercb]

19 hours ago, Billhook said:

We had an old lorry driver who collected sugar beet for us and never occurred to us that he was a tail gunner in a Lancaster in WW2 . He actually was trained up as a pilot and instructor in Canada but on his return to UK he found that there were no positions for him as a pilot, but they needed people with a pilot’s capability to operate the new radar operated gun turrets which had to be rotated in a pattern to cover the sky behind. However this yawed the aircraft and made the crew feel sick so was unpopular. This system was well known but what was not so well known was the infrared signalling device to link with our own night fighters so that they did not shoot each other down

I took him down to the Lancaster at Coningsby and we wedged him back in the rear turret. He was quite a large man. I did see a tear in his eye

 

Fascinating so did a quick google search and found this

 

SpitfireSpares.com - warbird Gunsites

SPITFIRESPARES.CO.UK

 

[Billhook]

2 hours ago, petercb said:

Fascinating so did a quick google search and found this

 

SpitfireSpares.com - warbird Gunsites

SPITFIRESPARES.CO.UK

 

Well done finding that.  I had not heard of the name of the infra red Z equipment.  Indeed when I took the gentleman to Coningsby, nobody there knew about it,  The good men that they were kept it secret even well after the war.

When we had looked around the Lancaster we went to have a coffee in the mess and a farmer had brought over a Dutchman who had been tending the war graves as a thank you.  He was looking through the rear gunner's log book and saw that he had done a raid on Flushing Island (Vlissingen)

"I vos zere!  You did fantastic job and ze Germans made us work for weeks with bulldozers trying to repair ze damage"

What was the chance of that encounter!

[openspaceman]

41 minutes ago, Billhook said:

He was looking through the rear gunner's log book and saw that he had done a raid on Flushing Island (Vlissingen)

That's where my uncle lays, shot down returning from Dusseldorf 80 years ago tomorrow. He would never have known the tide of the war had turned.

[petercb]

My uncle (WOp/AG) flew with Coastal Command on Sunderlands, mainly with the Canadians in Ireland out over the western approaches and Atlantic. Survived the war but was sadly killed a few years later flying whilst seconded to BOAC. 

Those guys were just so brave, the thought of flying a Lanc at 60ft at night is mind blowing. Gibson especially so to stay around to draw the ack ack fire. 'Enemy Coast Ahead' is a good read. Shame he was killed later in the war.

[spuddog0507]

41 minutes ago, petercb said:

My uncle (WOp/AG) flew with Coastal Command on Sunderlands, mainly with the Canadians in Ireland out over the western approaches and Atlantic. Survived the war but was sadly killed a few years later flying whilst seconded to BOAC. 

Those guys were just so brave, the thought of flying a Lanc at 60ft at night is mind blowing. Gibson especially so to stay around to draw the ack ack fire. 'Enemy Coast Ahead' is a good read. Shame he was killed later in the war.

Yes, them men had balls of steel, and thats for all off them, they guy where i cut my teeth in forestry and in a saw mill was in a tank regiment in north Africa under the command of Montgomery, the things he told me in the late 70s early 80s about his war antics where of great interest, he told me about being hold up about 30 mile from a German fighter base, they had 6 tanks all como netted up out of sight and they where there hold up for 3 wk just waiting for the wind direction to change before a early morning attack on the fighter base, when they got there there was only 12 planes there, when they left there was 12 destroyed planes all fuel burnt and viechiels destroyed and a unusable runway, after this the 6 tanks split in to 3 groups of 2 and went in 3 different directions to make the search harder for the germans, all the tank regiment guys survived with just 2 wounded, 80 degrees in the day and minus 15 at night, every credit to em ,,

[Billhook]

Yes such bravery, especially going off on two tours or more, was that 28 missions before you had relief.

I said before  that they needed people of pilot quality to operate the turret, the radar and the signalling device and this gentleman had done more hours as an instructor in Canada than the pilot of his Lancaster!  But such was the anger at the bombing of our cities and the whole war , that  they were determined to do their bit.  The rear gunners were particularly vulnerable as the Germans would try to nail them first.  Also they could not wear a parachute which was kept behind in the fuselage so imagine trying to go back, find it put it on and exit while the craft may be burning or spinning out of control

It says on the web that the average life expectancy for a rear gunner early on in the war was five missions.

 

In Phil's log book one of his missions was eleven hours.!

Another thin he told me was that because they were isolated from the rest of the crew there was a real danger of frostbite,  Therefore they had heated flying suits with heated gloves and heated boots.  In the first part of the war before 1943 and Mustang escorts, they lost most of the bombers that went out.  This was reversed later but still it was so terrifying to be a rear gunner that some deliberately took a boot off to  get frostbite so that they could go off sick.  This became a court martial offence for lack of moral fibre.  One mission Phil, my friend, had a fault in his electric circuit and had the wonderful choice of a burnt foot or frostbite and court martial!

 

In another incident I was told at East Kirkby by another veteran, that there was an airman who had just done his two tours, nerves rattled, but he thought that he would just watch the Lancs taxiing out that evening to wish them well.  He stood in front of the latrines hut smoking a cigarette.  The rear gunners would just exercise their turrets to check they were revolving correctly as the aircraft taxied however one of the rear gunners accidently caught the trigger and it took the whole of the roof of the latrine off.  Did not do much good for his already shattered nerves!

[petercb]

3 hours ago, Billhook said:

Yes such bravery, especially going off on two tours or more, was that 28 missions before you had relief.

I said before  that they needed people of pilot quality to operate the turret, the radar and the signalling device and this gentleman had done more hours as an instructor in Canada than the pilot of his Lancaster!  But such was the anger at the bombing of our cities and the whole war , that  they were determined to do their bit.  The rear gunners were particularly vulnerable as the Germans would try to nail them first.  Also they could not wear a parachute which was kept behind in the fuselage so imagine trying to go back, find it put it on and exit while the craft may be burning or spinning out of control

It says on the web that the average life expectancy for a rear gunner early on in the war was five missions.

 

In Phil's log book one of his missions was eleven hours.!

Another thin he told me was that because they were isolated from the rest of the crew there was a real danger of frostbite,  Therefore they had heated flying suits with heated gloves and heated boots.  In the first part of the war before 1943 and Mustang escorts, they lost most of the bombers that went out.  This was reversed later but still it was so terrifying to be a rear gunner that some deliberately took a boot off to  get frostbite so that they could go off sick.  This became a court martial offence for lack of moral fibre.  One mission Phil, my friend, had a fault in his electric circuit and had the wonderful choice of a burnt foot or frostbite and court martial!

 

In another incident I was told at East Kirkby by another veteran, that there was an airman who had just done his two tours, nerves rattled, but he thought that he would just watch the Lancs taxiing out that evening to wish them well.  He stood in front of the latrines hut smoking a cigarette.  The rear gunners would just exercise their turrets to check they were revolving correctly as the aircraft taxied however one of the rear gunners accidently caught the trigger and it took the whole of the roof of the latrine off.  Did not do much good for his already shattered nerves!

My Dad when he was due to be called up got all the talk from the RAF about join us as a rear gunner, flying pay, sergeants stripes etc despite his eyesight not being the best. My uncle told him the facts and that he probably wouldn't live long enough to enjoy it. Dad marched into the Army recruitment depot and volunteered. Posted to REME as a driver, had a cushy posting for a while driving WRAC officers and then ended up in Italy slogging his way up through the mud and into Austria at the end of the war.