Ecodesign stoves

[Alycidon]

On 17/06/2022 at 12:55, trigger_andy said:

 

 

I love my Esse Ironheart. It has three levers to fully control the burn and temp plus one for the oven. Took a little while to master but it’s brilliant when you do so.

 

 

The new woodburner version now only has two levers,   delivered one today.

 

A

[trigger_andy]

The new woodburner version now only has two levers,   delivered one today.
 
A

Which one was done away with? The one at the Lum Box?

[Muddy42]

9 hours ago, Alycidon said:

I am an Esse dealer,  the mods you suggest would invalidate any stove casing warranty should an issue occur.  The holes in the back are permanently open and designed to ensure that there is always enough oxygen in the stove to combust the creosote laden gases given off by your logs.

 

Blocking them will achieve what you want but crerosote that has not been burnt in the firebox due to the temperatures being to low then condenses in the chimney and is one of the two main causes of chimney fires,  the other is burning wet wood.    You have a chimney fire following the mods you propose and are at risk of your insurance loss adjuster invalidating your insurance claim.

 

A

 

 

First off, I burn very dry logs (seasoned outside for 2 years and them stacked in the early summer in a side-less shed).  I test them with a moisture meter.  I agree with you about the benefits of this.  The best safety initiative the government could implement would be to issue each new stove owner with a moisture meter.

 

I am aware that blocking the holes could cause warranty or insurance issues.  As I said I will burn it for a while before doing this as a last resort.

 

As to the implication and creosote and chimney fires, I disagree based on my past experience. The aim of ecodesign is improving air quality in cities (I live in the sticks).  Careful control of air does not necessarily lead to creosote and chimney fires. Just because you can clamp a stove down, doesn't mean you have to. I have used a few Clearview and Charnwood stoves for over 20 years now. I don't clamp them down for long periods or 'keep them in' overnight, just burn when needed. I clean the chimneys (one of them has had a camera down it) and honestly I have seen more ash in an ashtray, certainly no creosote.  The open fires are a different matter, when burning the same dry wood, they can need cleaning twice a year  and I have to treat the crerosote.

 

My beef with ecodesign (and compulsory minimum air supply) is that it could take away control and ability to cool the stove down quickly.  There could be perfectly good reasons for wanting to clamp a stove down for a short period (e.g. if the stove gets too hot, someone puts too much wood on, or there is a chimney fire).

[openspaceman]

12 hours ago, Muddy42 said:

There could be perfectly good reasons for wanting to clamp a stove down for a short period (e.g. if the stove gets too hot, someone puts too much wood on, or there is a chimney fire).

This is why a stove and flue need to be well sealed and I doubt the small extra air supply required by the new regulations  can  supply sufficient  air to generate enough heat to damage anything in the event of a chimney fire. 

 

My memory of a chimney fire (apart from the very characteristic smell) is a roaring chimney above an open fire with red sparks and a beautiful blue flame dancing on top of the chimney pot.  The blue flame was carbon monoxide, formed as CO2 lower down the chimney was reduced by glowing soot higher up and intense heat as the draw from the super hot chimney was sucking in ample air from the room. Stuffing wet towels to block the chimney calmed it down  but the fire service with a bucket of water and a stirrup pump feeding a hose attached to chimney rods put it out. I was 25ish  and in the first house (tied cottage) of our own.

 

Of course if you fill a stove with very dry logs and it gets  hot enough to carbonise even if you shut the air off you will continue to send unburned wood gas up the chimney and the tarry vapours will condense as their dew point will be well above 100C.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by openspaceman
typo

[Muddy42]

I have never had one myself but I have been at two chimney fires in other properties. Both owners didn’t sweep at all and burn’t unseasoned logs that they thought were dry by being in a shed for three months.

It may not be a popular view with the stove installers (keen to sell the newest, safest, cleanest reg compliant new model, just maybe?) but I still believe you can burn wood safety in any setup (open fire, old stove, new stove) with good chimney hygiene, dry logs and a bit of care and common sense.

[Alycidon]

13 hours ago, trigger_andy said:

 

 

Which one was done away with? The one at the Lum Box?

 

 

The primary air supply lever below the firebox door.  Wood burning stoves do not need an air supply under the fire. 

 

A

[trigger_andy]

9 hours ago, Alycidon said:

The primary air supply lever below the firebox door.  Wood burning stoves do not need an air supply under the fire. 

 

A

They do not necessarily “need” a primary air supply. But following the Esse instruction manual the primary air control lever certainly gets used when burning wood. The manual instructs you to do so. And personally I’d hate to lose that additional air supply to get the fire started. 
 

I’m curious as to why Esse removed it. Cost cutting or regulations forcing their hand.

 

Im also curious how they suggest you get the stove started now? Hopefully they don’t state to leave the door open ajar?

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by trigger_andy

[Alycidon]

On 21/06/2022 at 08:09, trigger_andy said:

They do not necessarily “need” a primary air supply. But following the Esse instruction manual the primary air control lever certainly gets used when burning wood. The manual instructs you to do so. And personally I’d hate to lose that additional air supply to get the fire started. 
 

I’m curious as to why Esse removed it. Cost cutting or regulations forcing their hand.

 

Im also curious how they suggest you get the stove started now? Hopefully they don’t state to leave the door open ajar?

 

 

Leaving the door open an inch is the usual way of starting any stove.   If its smoking back then there is not enough pull from the flue.  Ironhearts and Eco design stoves generally want 12PA as a minimum.

 

A

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Alycidon said:

Leaving the door open an inch is the usual way of starting any stove.   If its smoking back then there is not enough pull from the flue.  Ironhearts and Eco design stoves generally want 12PA as a minimum.

 

A

Regardless, the primary control is clearly identified in the manual as a way to control the burn when using wood which contradicts what you stated earlier. 

[Alycidon]

This is the latest IH user instructions,  the unit is a dedicated wood burner.

 

https://www.esse.com/wp-content/themes/esse/downloads/guides-and-manuals/woodburning-stoves/Ironheart-EcoDesign-Manual.pdf

 

The air control above the door which on a multifuel stove would be known as the secondary air control is what is used to control the fire once up and running.  It also advises leaving the door open a shade when lighting.

 

The older multifuel model does have a primary air control below the door,  I would only use that on lighting and perhaps if I have a lump of wood in the firebox that is a bit damp and needs a bit of extra encouragement to burn.  Wood does not usually need an air supply from below.