Dead trees and 5m3 allowance

[stewmo]

I’ve been working a very small spruce plantation. Thinning out

 

The owner wants to take out his 5 cube allowance this quarter and we found 3 trees that the deer have rubbed the bark off and are now dead. They are probably 20-25cm dbh.

 

Do these count towards the 5 cube or are they exempt? Can’t find anything obvious in the forestry commission guides so I am thinking they probably count towards?

 

Thanks

[Paul in the woods]

I have assumed not (i.e. dead trees don't need a felling licence in England), but as you say I can't find anything clearly stating dead trees don't count.

 

From this document: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/876641/Tree_Felling_-_Getting_Permission_-_office_print_version.pdf

 

It states: "In any calendar quarter you may fell up to 5 cubic metres (m3) of growing trees on your property without a felling licence, as long as no more than 2m3 are sold."

 

So, if they are completely dead they are not growing trees. I am also only talking about England.

 

I would also add, does 3 trees make much difference? 20cm dbh would be say 10cm mid tree diameter? This table shows you could take out quite a few: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826786/TimberVolumeCalculator.pdf

 

You could split the work over two quarters, so 31 March then 1 April. I'd also take photos of the works, especially the dead trees if you need to rely on them being dead.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Paul in the woods

[openspaceman]

1 hour ago, stewmo said:

we found 3 trees that the deer have rubbed the bark off and are now dead. They are probably 20-25cm dbh

I've never known deer to damage anything that big.

[stewmo]

I have assumed not (i.e. dead trees don't need a felling licence in England), but as you say I can't find anything clearly stating dead trees don't count.
 
From this document: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/876641/Tree_Felling_-_Getting_Permission_-_office_print_version.pdf
 
It states: "In any calendar quarter you may fell up to 5 cubic metres (m3) of growing trees on your property without a felling licence, as long as no more than 2m3 are sold."
 
So, if they are completely dead they are not growing trees. I am also only talking about England.
 
I would also add, does 3 trees make much difference? 20cm dbh would be say 10cm mid tree diameter? This table shows you could take out quite a few: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/826786/TimberVolumeCalculator.pdf
 
You could split the work over two quarters, so 31 March then 1 April. I'd also take photos of the works, especially the dead trees if you need to rely on them being dead.

Thanks. Appreciate the reply.
I think you are on to something with respect to ‘growing’. The phrase growing trees is repeatedly used in that guide over and over again, to the point that it would certainly seem to be deliberate and one would assume excludes dead trees.

You are right regarding the three dead ones not making that much difference, but as we are working without a felling license at the moment as we get a better understanding of the plan ahead I want to be cautious about what we do fell and stick within the legislation. We are recording the works.

We also want to clear as many of the smallest diameter trees as possible as the plantation desperately needs opening up. Standing dead isn’t such a problem (as in risk) and they let the light through so I could swop 3 of those for probably 10 skinny ones if they count towards the 5 cube.

[stewmo]

I've never known deer to damage anything that big.

Ok interesting thanks
At first I thought it was fire damage but then I thought how could it be in the middle of a dense plantation….the trees are too spaced out unless there was more than one fire, and there are others next to those that have lost some of the bark. Wonder what it could be [emoji848]

[openspaceman]

3 minutes ago, stewmo said:

 

Thanks. Appreciate the reply.
I think you are on to something with respect to ‘growing’. The phrase growing trees is repeatedly used in that guide over and over again, to the point that it would certainly seem to be deliberate and one would assume excludes dead trees.

You are right regarding the three dead ones not making that much difference, but as we are working without a felling license at the moment as we get a better understanding of the plan ahead I want to be cautious about what we do fell and stick within the legislation. We are recording the works.

We also want to clear as many of the smallest diameter trees as possible as the plantation desperately needs opening up. Standing dead isn’t such a problem (as in risk) and they let the light through so I could swop 3 of those for probably 10 skinny ones if they count towards the 5 cube.

 

Felling licence always use to allow thinning trees below 4" dbh, so whip all those out first then start counting 5m3

[openspaceman]

1 minute ago, stewmo said:

 

Ok interesting thanks
At first I thought it was fire damage but then I thought how could it be in the middle of a dense plantation….the trees are too spaced out unless there was more than one fire, and there are others next to those that have lost some of the bark. Wonder what it could be

 

Pictures might help decide

[trigger_andy]

Felling licence always use to allow thinning trees below 4" dbh, so whip all those out first then start counting 5m3

The Estate behind me has a few plantations. He says the rules have changed and he now needs a felling licence for sub 4” which he says is a huge pain.

I might have picked him up wrong though, I’ll ask.

[Paul in the woods]

24 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

The Estate behind me has a few plantations. He says the rules have changed and he now needs a felling licence for sub 4” which he says is a huge pain.

I might have picked him up wrong though, I’ll ask.

I know the Scottish rules have diverged from the English ones but thinning under 10cm dbh still seems to be exempt. Details here: https://forestry.gov.scot/support-regulations/felling-permissions

 

Interestingly the Scottish rules cover dead trees:

 

Quote

Dead trees; they must be completely dead. Trees that are starting to die or are blown over are not exempt.

This only applies when the tree is completely dead and is showing no signs of growth or displaying foliage of any kind. If you are unsure whether a tree is dead you should seek advice from your local Conservancy office or another forestry professional. If the tree(s) were not dead when they were felled, this will be investigated as an unauthorised felling

 

[stewmo]

Felling licence always use to allow thinning trees below 4" dbh, so whip all those out first then start counting 5m3

Yes exactly our plan at the moment [emoji106]