new home with TPOs

[Baldbloke]

Hi there

we’re delighted to have had our offer accepted on a house so now need to do some homework. I suspect the mortgage company will want a tree survey but we’ll also want to know whether we’re going to be able to trim back these two enormous trees at the entrance to the property (left house in the pic) that block all light. They’re under TPOs. Well also need to survey to check they’re safe and not affecting drains etc. Any feedback about whether we’re likely to be able to raise the crown and thin them, would be most welcome. Totally need to this subject having never had a properly with trees before. Thanks all 

You may have house insurance issues with trees being so close to the property.

Edit: Apologies, didn’t read all the other mentions over insurance implications.

[eggsarascal]

On 21/05/2021 at 10:21, Paddy1000111 said:

Definitely get a survey done by a qualified Arboricultural surveyor (not your local "tree surgeon") for peace of mind. Trees don't really attack drains unless the drain is already faulty.

 

In regards to pruning there's no reason why they wouldn't give you permission. I've been regularly applying for thinning of 20-25% or a reduction of 1.5-2m with my local authority and they are usually approved within a couple of days, no biggie. If you get in a decent tree surgeon who can send off a good application it won't be an issue, I've not had any applications denied but I'm usually pretty conservative.

 

As Woody Paul said. I would focus on the confier/laurel (hard to see what it is) hedge on the lower right of the photos first. That's far too high and bulky and is probably causing you more of an issue with light than just the tree. 

That old chestnut again, trees dont really attack drains unless the drain is already faulty.

 

Not according to this:

 

 

D, Ridgers, K, Rolf and Ö, Stål. (2006) Management and planning solutions to lack of resistance to root penetration by modern PVC and concrete sewer pipes. Arboricultural Journal 2006, Vol. 29, pp. 269–290

 

Essentially Ridgers et al set up a field trial with intact and variously damaged pipes within a realistic usage situation and planted hybrid black pops above them. Six years later, they airspaded them out and looked for root intrusion. Poplar roots had managed to breach the normal spec seals within both new types of drain and even past an additional external tape seal in one instance. Roots were found to breach the drains around its entire circumference not just below the water level. The authors considered likely that the additional condensation around the increased surface area of the joints increase root proliferation which increased penetration.

 

 

[jfc]

That old chestnut again, trees dont really attack drains unless the drain is already faulty.
 
Not according to this:
 
  D, Ridgers, K, Rolf and Ö, Stål. (2006) Management and planning solutions to lack of resistance to root penetration by modern PVC and concrete sewer pipes. Arboricultural Journal 2006, Vol. 29, pp. 269–290
 
Essentially Ridgers et al set up a field trial with intact and variously damaged pipes within a realistic usage situation and planted hybrid black pops above them. Six years later, they airspaded them out and looked for root intrusion. Poplar roots had managed to breach the normal spec seals within both new types of drain and even past an additional external tape seal in one instance. Roots were found to breach the drains around its entire circumference not just below the water level. The authors considered likely that the additional condensation around the increased surface area of the joints increase root proliferation which increased penetration.
 
 

Hi eggs,

Thanks for posting that as I have been told by a tree consultant that roots only go after faulty pipes. I will have a read of it later.

Cheers

Jan.

[eggsarascal]

3 minutes ago, jfc said:

Hi eggs,

Thanks for posting that as I have been told by a tree consultant that roots only go after faulty pipes. I will have a read of it later.

Cheers

Jan.

I copied that from here some time ago, I'll try to find the original thread later.

[Paddy1000111]

54 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

That old chestnut again, trees dont really attack drains unless the drain is already faulty.

 

Not according to this:

 

 

D, Ridgers, K, Rolf and Ö, Stål. (2006) Management and planning solutions to lack of resistance to root penetration by modern PVC and concrete sewer pipes. Arboricultural Journal 2006, Vol. 29, pp. 269–290

 

Essentially Ridgers et al set up a field trial with intact and variously damaged pipes within a realistic usage situation and planted hybrid black pops above them. Six years later, they airspaded them out and looked for root intrusion. Poplar roots had managed to breach the normal spec seals within both new types of drain and even past an additional external tape seal in one instance. Roots were found to breach the drains around its entire circumference not just below the water level. The authors considered likely that the additional condensation around the increased surface area of the joints increase root proliferation which increased penetration.

 

 

Well, you know more about drains than I do that's for sure. I take it that was the newer ring seal "push fit" type as opposed to the clay type that the property probably has? 

[eggsarascal]

26 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Well, you know more about drains than I do that's for sure. I take it that was the newer ring seal "push fit" type as opposed to the clay type that the property probably has? 

I would imagine they would have been ring seal, they have been around a long time. 

 

As you say, I'd presume the drains on that house would be vitreous clay. I'd like to see the drainage survey report from the property if the lateral runs near those trees.

 

I can't remember who posted the above originally, I'm fairly sure they said they had discussed it with LA TO's and basically they weren't going to change there way of thinking. Some point in doing trials if the findings are going to be ignored.

[Paddy1000111]

45 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

I would imagine they would have been ring seal, they have been around a long time. 

 

As you say, I'd presume the drains on that house would be vitreous clay. I'd like to see the drainage survey report from the property if the lateral runs near those trees.

 

I can't remember who posted the above originally, I'm fairly sure they said they had discussed it with LA TO's and basically they weren't going to change there way of thinking. Some point in doing trials if the findings are going to be ignored.

You would think they would take it onboard but then it would cost them more money 🤦🏼 To be fair, hybrid poplars etc are some of the most invasive root wise. It doesn't surprise me that they can grow in through the seals really! I knew trees were attracted to drains due to condensation and warmth etc meaning the root supporting fungi can grow quicker giving increased growth again but I thought that they couldn't pull apart couplings or penetrate pipes unless there was existing damage. Every day is a school day

[eggsarascal]

2 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

You would think they would take it onboard but then it would cost them more money 🤦🏼 To be fair, hybrid poplars etc are some of the most invasive root wise. It doesn't surprise me that they can grow in through the seals really! I knew trees were attracted to drains due to condensation and warmth etc meaning the root supporting fungi can grow quicker giving increased growth again but I thought that they couldn't pull apart couplings or penetrate pipes unless there was existing damage. Every day is a school day

My thinking is, the bigger roots push against the pipes which then dislodges the joint enough for the very fine roots in through the joints. I've nothing to back this up, but drains are pressure tested, or drop tested to prove they aren't leaking before they are signed off.

[daltontrees]

3 hours ago, eggsarascal said:

That old chestnut again, trees dont really attack drains unless the drain is already faulty.

 

Not according to this:

 

 

D, Ridgers, K, Rolf and Ö, Stål. (2006) Management and planning solutions to lack of resistance to root penetration by modern PVC and concrete sewer pipes. Arboricultural Journal 2006, Vol. 29, pp. 269–290

I have to say I am one of those who have said something like this in the past, but I would deem soft rubberised seals to be a fault. You old-fashioned mortar filled joints might let tiny roots through but they will never be able to crush the mortar and become thickened and woody. Not so the rubberised seal, but even then there is a limit to how far the seal can be pushed before the root is pressing against  PVC. I wonder if the trial had been allowed to run for another decade whether the pipes would have been distorted.

 

I've just been reading stuff about the current situation. Research in Germany has resulted in fresh recent DIN technical guidance which provides for tree root proof jointing. An interesting aspect is that root growth into pipes is encouraged by oxygen escape from pipe joints. Anyway, the result is that elastomer joints (TYTON) correctly fitted have an estimated leak proof pressure of 8 bar after 100 years, whcih equals the generally assumed penetration pressure of angiosperms and is about double that of gymnosperms (conifers).

 

So it is fair to say, as the research concluded, that "“Roots can grow not only into leaky pipes and pipe joints but also tight pipe joints which do not offer sufficient resistance to the roots.” It goes on to state: “With new constructions and the correct manufacture of pipe joints it can be assumed that the danger of root penetration into the pipeline is slight. In order to increase resistance to root penetration, additional constructional safety measures can be adopted". The choice of root resistant pipe joints is one of the key passive measures put forward.

 

 

[eggsarascal]

10 minutes ago, daltontrees said:

I have to say I am one of those who have said something like this in the past, but I would deem soft rubberised seals to be a fault. You old-fashioned mortar filled joints might let tiny roots through but they will never be able to crush the mortar and become thickened and woody. Not so the rubberised seal, but even then there is a limit to how far the seal can be pushed before the root is pressing against  PVC. I wonder if the trial had been allowed to run for another decade whether the pipes would have been distorted.

 

I've just been reading stuff about the current situation. Research in Germany has resulted in fresh recent DIN technical guidance which provides for tree root proof jointing. An interesting aspect is that root growth into pipes is encouraged by oxygen escape from pipe joints. Anyway, the result is that elastomer joints (TYTON) correctly fitted have an estimated leak proof pressure of 8 bar after 100 years, whcih equals the generally assumed penetration pressure of angiosperms and is about double that of gymnosperms (conifers).

 

So it is fair to say, as the research concluded, that "“Roots can grow not only into leaky pipes and pipe joints but also tight pipe joints which do not offer sufficient resistance to the roots.” It goes on to state: “With new constructions and the correct manufacture of pipe joints it can be assumed that the danger of root penetration into the pipeline is slight. In order to increase resistance to root penetration, additional constructional safety measures can be adopted". The choice of root resistant pipe joints is one of the key passive measures put forward.

 

 

Under 'normal' circumstances I'd agree about mortar filled joints not allowing roots to get woody, but in a foul sewer. over time, hydrogen sulphide will 'eat' through the mortar leaving the joint exposed, in turn leaving a large gap that allow larger roots to penatrate the joint.