Looks like no more Makita Petrol Saws

[Paddy1000111]

It's more the feel and use of plastic. Plastic degrades, aluminium doesn't. Plastic cracks when hit, aluminium doesn't. Plastic insulates heat, aluminium soaks it up. There's a reason why stihl pro saws use aluminium for a lot of components rather than plastic. No matter how high quality the plastic or how much glass fibre its re-enforced with it just can't take abuse like aluminium. Look at 200T's they get tonnes of abuse, handles snapped, av mounts snapped, fuel tanks cracked, chainbrakes snapped, covers cracked and melted, oil eating into plastics etc. Barely ever seen cracked crankcases (not saying it doesn't happen because I know it does) but if you buy a heavily used 200t you can bag on binning half the plastic parts due to cracks, stripped threads and other damage. 

 

On the battery front you can get 20Ah 22.2v high output batteries that weigh 2.5kg you would need two... The new 881 is 8.5hp and weighs in at 14.24kg with the 41 bar... If they made one with that 13hp motor and gave it the above battery we are up to 7.5kg. That leaves just under 7kg for casing, oil, an esc and a bar which is more than enough. Now we have a 13hp (65% more power) "882E" that will probably weigh less than it's petrol older brother. 

[Echo]

Look up Glock pistol material, it wont be breaking, or cracking.

How many pro saws with plastic have you seen breaking under normal loads,

Ive seen trees try to break them and they just bounce back,

there is no company that wants to stay in business going to make

a product out of cheap plastic, lots of research goes into this.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Echo

[Paddy1000111]

2 minutes ago, Echo said:

Look up Glock pistol material, it wont be breaking, or cracking.

How man pro saws with plastic have you breaking under normal loads,

Ive seen trees try to break them and they just bounce back.

It all depends on what you google... "Glock frame crack" brings up tonnes of results, look at images. ms200t crankcase crack brings up pretty much zero. Not many pro saws have a lot of plastic. That's the difference between the pro and prosumer tools of the same engine size and why there's a price difference. Stihl bin off the plastic sprocket covers etc and fit aluminium ones because they are stronger and last longer. Personally I've not broken any saws under normal loads but I have a built in mechanical sympathy that not everyone has.

I did the other day strip the thread out of my ms200t fuel tank even though I baby the thread in so it's aligned and then torque it with a torque wrench because I know that threads into plastic are 90% of the time complete garbage. What I mean though is when I have seen saws or bought spares/repairs ones the bits that are broken are plastic. I've never had a spares or repairs chainsaw that has had a broken crankcase made from ally. Also the pro saws are modular in the sense that you can remove a small bit to access something, and if you drop a saw or it gets hit by a falling log or run over or something stupid then it's usually a small bit that breaks and can be replaced for a few quid. When I rebuilt my 200t I binned a load of the plastic parts due to cracks and damage and the aluminium got re-powdercoated. The electric chainsaws that are coming out at the moment are monocoque in construction which means that repairing it is more like pulling apart a laptop than a chainsaw with everything held together with course screws, clips and mastic. 

[Echo]

9 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

It all depends on what you google... "Glock frame crack" brings up tonnes of results, look at images. ms200t crankcase crack brings up pretty much zero. Not many pro saws have a lot of plastic. That's the difference between the pro and prosumer tools of the same engine size and why there's a price difference. Stihl bin off the plastic sprocket covers etc and fit aluminium ones because they are stronger and last longer. Personally I've not broken any saws under normal loads but I have a built in mechanical sympathy that not everyone has.

I did the other day strip the thread out of my ms200t fuel tank even though I baby the thread in so it's aligned and then torque it with a torque wrench because I know that threads into plastic are 90% of the time complete garbage. What I mean though is when I have seen saws or bought spares/repairs ones the bits that are broken are plastic. I've never had a spares or repairs chainsaw that has had a broken crankcase made from ally. Also the pro saws are modular in the sense that you can remove a small bit to access something, and if you drop a saw or it gets hit by a falling log or run over or something stupid then it's usually a small bit that breaks and can be replaced for a few quid. When I rebuilt my 200t I binned a load of the plastic parts due to cracks and damage and the aluminium got re-powdercoated. The electric chainsaws that are coming out at the moment are monocoque in construction which means that repairing it is more like pulling apart a laptop than a chainsaw with everything held together with course screws, clips and mastic. 

I have no problem with plastic skinned, or bodied saws, same with my pvc windows,

they all last.

Carbon fibre bicycles also last, as long as aluminium, or longer, aluminium has problems when its bent, stressed or vibrated, anodes are also required to keep it from melting away in other situations, many aluminium saw cases suffer the same.

Your looking at problems, there are many solutions that work for the majority of people.

Certain people cant be given tools, they probably broke all their toys too.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Echo

[Paddy1000111]

I suppose so, Carbon fibre bicycles are also prone to cracking and delamination though. Aluminium frames rarely fail and tend to bend rather than break. My old man was a paramedic. He had a guy on a road bike going down a hill and hit a pothole. The carbon forks were either already damaged or the shock damaged them. They split and the guy went face first onto the tarmac and ground away the whole bottom side of his face. That put me off carbon forks. 

My previous job to this was commercial aircraft repair. Fiberglass/carbon components delaminated and cracked all the time. Aluminium components only really failed from corrosion and that was caused most of the time by improper grounding or no surface protection. The floor panels on aircraft were composite with a honeycomb layer. Any little dent or hit caused delamination and anything over the size of a golfball was a new panel which were well into the thousands in some cases. They also didn't really use plastic for anything on aircraft minus windows and nylon bushes which says a lot about its capabilities. even the interior trim was fiberglass. I don't hate plastic, I just feel that when I am paying £600 for a saw I want something more than a hollow sounding thin plastic toy that feels like it came from the lidl special weekly deals isle

[Stubby]

7 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

I suppose so, Carbon fibre bicycles are also prone to cracking and delamination though. Aluminium frames rarely fail and tend to bend rather than break. My old man was a paramedic. He had a guy on a road bike going down a hill and hit a pothole. The carbon forks were either already damaged or the shock damaged them. They split and the guy went face first onto the tarmac and ground away the whole bottom side of his face. That put me off carbon forks. 

My previous job to this was commercial aircraft repair. Fiberglass/carbon components delaminated and cracked all the time. Aluminium components only really failed from corrosion and that was caused most of the time by improper grounding or no surface protection. The floor panels on aircraft were composite with a honeycomb layer. Any little dent or hit caused delamination and anything over the size of a golfball was a new panel which were well into the thousands in some cases. They also didn't really use plastic for anything on aircraft minus windows and nylon bushes which says a lot about its capabilities. even the interior trim was fiberglass. I don't hate plastic, I just feel that when I am paying £600 for a saw I want something more than a hollow sounding thin plastic toy that feels like it came from the lidl special weekly deals isle

I know what you are saying . I think the problems with carbon fiber de laminating are because its " lay up " rather than " pre preg " . 

[Paddy1000111]

3 minutes ago, Stubby said:

I know what you are saying . I think the problems with carbon fiber de laminating are because its " lay up " rather than " pre preg " . 

Sort of yes, sort of no. Only difference between lay up and pre preg is the mat on pre preg is pre-impregnated with epoxy and his heat cured as opposed to lay up which is obviously time cured. Pre-preg is only really stronger as the ratio of material to epoxy is dead on where regular lay up is more of a skill. It's all damaged in the same way. overstress and impact damage. 

[Stubby]

2 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Sort of yes, sort of no. Only difference between lay up and pre preg is the mat on pre preg is pre-impregnated with epoxy and his heat cured as opposed to lay up which is obviously time cured. Pre-preg is only really stronger as the ratio of material to epoxy is dead on where regular lay up is more of a skill. It's all damaged in the same way. overstress and impact damage. 

Heat cured and compressed though .

[Paddy1000111]

9 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Heat cured and compressed though .

Standard lay up should be vac bagged/compressed too. Also removes some excess resin in the process. There's really no big difference between processes pre-preg/not pre-preg, at least in the AC world. Pre preg tends to be easier to lay, removes operator error, has more working time and hence be more uniform in finish to remove stress raisers, the weights are also more exact hence why it's used for rotor blade manufacture etc. Non pre-preg is usually messier, more chance of FOD in the lay, large space for operator error in mixing ratios and material to epoxy ratio, if the mixing ratio is wrong and/or it's in a hot area it can go thermonuclear and overheat, more chance for some areas to be thicker than others, hard to do large parts as stuff dries before others, if you mix hardener and accelerator instead of resin/hardener then accelerator you blow stuff up, lots to go wrong. The basic process is all the same though, get the right material, check it's in date, ensure everything is degreased and sterile, cut the stuff to the right size, lay it up, vac bag it, wait for it to dry, get it NDT'd...  Anyway, we're getting off topic here. ? 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Paddy1000111

[Dan Maynard]

The problem is your 20Ah 22.2v battery has about 1.6MJ on those ratings. The 881 power of 6.4kW would need to run 290 amps at 22.2v and the battery would last about 250 seconds.

There is such a lot of energy in a tank of petrol, batteries are 10 times off the mark as against energy required by the bigger saws.

Vehicle technology has adapted by allocating a lot more of the vehicle mass to energy storage, not really going to work on a portable tool.

Consumer tech has adapted by electronics getting hundreds of times more efficient, phone batteries don't have any more energy in today than they did 10 years ago.

I remain to be convinced that big saws will go battery. The chain is essentially the same as it was 40 years ago, only advance is narrower gauge on smaller bars.