Processing firewood - Kiln and Costs

[Dieselgen17]

Hi, am new to this and forestry management/firewood processing in general. I currently have circa 550-600 cubic of hardwood to be taken out of my woods in a thinning programme. I am trying to look into maximizing the timbers value and it seems to me selling standing timber is worth £50.00 a ton (worth more if you add in the fact it’s income tax free) but once processed a ton of wood may convert into 3 dumpy bags which could be sold at say £120 a bag of kiln dried. Is this an accurate estimate/conversion rate? 
 

if the above is relatively accurate then my 550-600 cubic metres could be worth, processed, between £130-£150k. We have some equipment already I.e tractor etc but would need to buy a processor, basic timber trailer and importantly a kiln. 
 

The idea I have for the kiln is to buy a shipping container and install a kiln drying unit into it. Clearly, 600 cubic metres would soon be processed so I need to try and make it continue to earn its keep afterwards. Would it be feasible to mount the kiln unit on a low loader trailer and in essence have a portable wood drying kiln which can be hired out on a weekly rate together with the processor? It seems to me there is no reason this can’t be done as it will run off electric which can be done by a generator or customers own supply. I estimate a 20 foot container could process circa 15 cubic metres of wood in a week. Does anyone think there would be a demand for this in light of the change in firewood regulations? 

[Big J]

Hi there, and welcome to the forum.

 

I'll address your questions as best I can:

 

• It's not worth £50 a tonne standing. Top notch, sawlog grade douglas fir or western red cedar on an easy site is, but not firewood grade hardwood. £5-25 would be reasonable, depending on access and quality.
• Income from your woodland is only tax free if you don't process it. The moment you chop it for logs, or mill it, it's subject to income tax.
• Your standing cubic metre of firewood will produce about 1.8 cubic metres of logs (depending on the size of the logs). Average is around £100/cubic metre nationally, so assuming 575 standing cube, you've 1035 split cube, or just over £100k. 
• Kiln drying firewood from an electrical supply is economically unfeasible. Completely unfeasible. The cost per cubic metre would be massive.  I used to run electrically heated kilns for drying sawn timber, and the cost per cubic metre was about £70 in electricity. Now for sawn timber going out at £900-1400 a (solid) cube, that's not an issue. For firewood at £200 (per solid cube) it is. And sawn timber dries much more easily than firewood as it's easier to direct airflow evenly. And sawn boards are nearly always air dried first, so in real terms, the electricity cost of heating with electricity could be somewhere near £100/solid cube (£50/split loose cube). I did try one load of firewood in my kiln once, but I never did it again.
• Given that the kiln would need to be biomass powered, I don't think it's feasbile to make it portable.

Sorry to be universally negative, but I think that the project is a non starter. I'd advise simply employing the services of a harvesting contractor and selling the timber standing. 

[Squaredy]

Yes Big J has it spot on.  What you have proposed is in fact a bit like a farmer saying he is going to build a bakery as he has calculated he can sell his wheat for a much better price if he mills it and turns it into bread.

 

It is very easy to overlook the amount of time space and energy it will use to chop, split, dry, and store 21 lorry loads of logs.  Also of course you then have to start marketing your end product and delivering it to hundreds of customers. 

[spuddog0507]

Hi, read your post, then went and had my dinner and thinking how i could reply with out sounding harsh, but J has replied first and put it in a very good manner.

50 pound a tonne standing hardwood thinnings NO the prices J quoted are more like it, now if it was elm of oak may be but depending on quality ? 

J conversion of timber to split logs are about right,

The cost of felling, processing (in the woodland in to movable lengths) then extracting to roadside, then transport to yard all costs money, add all these up along with your £50 a tonne timber value and your at some where around the £100 a tonne mark, you could buy it in for less than that !,

proccessing in to firewood/logs you say wont take long, the volume your quoting is 20 arctic lorry load + you wont do that in a wk or 2 believe me, then you will need to have the space to work and some where to store the logs your processing with out them going black and mouldy which dont look a good product when delivered to the end user,

you say you have a tractor but is it up to the job ? forestry is about the harshest work you will put machinery in to and it takes its toll, you say you need to buy forwarding trailer, processor , and build a kiln this also will cost and before you know it you will of spent more money than its worth and you will end up working your arse off for very little or even nothing,

One thing i am going to say is you say you have little expeirience does this also mean with saws and the felling process ? as felling trees safely and correctly is not just a walk in the park, trees will hurt you and even kill you so be very careful, i have been in the job 40yrs and heard a lot of nightmare stories in this time, so be very careful, read the replies you get on here and you will get a better understanding of what you are up against,

to be very honest when i first read your post my thoughts where good look your dreaming, and here comes another jam butty million heir, just think about it very carefully some times numbers on paper dont always add up to the realastic numbers of the practical side, Good luck,

[Justme]

We are buying in firewood lengths at about £60 per tonne delivered.

You wont get £50 standing.

A builders dumpy bag (about 0.5m3) is not worth £100 more like £50 ish.

Thinning are hard to make money on but improve value of what left in 10-20 years time.

 

 

 

 

[Dieselgen17]

Thanks all, like I say, very limited knowledge of it all and appreciate there is a lot of time and other costs to take into account. I certainly wasn’t thinking it was a straightforward job. It would tie in with taking on an employee who could do it a day or so a week in addition to his other tasks (subject to putting him through the tickets required etc). It would seem the agent I have been using is way off the mark saying £50 a ton standing.. makes me think it may still be worth looking into as a long term thing to tick over with. Also, I do appreciate the income tax relief is only applicable if it isn’t processed.
 

re electric costs, I hadn’t appreciated how significant they are, although based on the consumption for the unit I was looking at, I thought it was coming out at circa £70.00 a container/week long cycle. Clearly got that calculation wrong. 

As you will appreciate, it’s worth looking into these things and seeing whether it is feasible. Better that than getting blagged by the first person that makes you an offer for it standing. 
 

The Braun T2 Super 7 cbm Dehumidifier Kiln Kit is the unit I was looking at buying in by the way. 

[Squaredy]

5 minutes ago, Dieselgen17 said:

The Braun T2 Super 7 cbm Dehumidifier Kiln Kit

This kiln dehumidifier is designed simply for kilning timber that is already air dried.  It is not intended for fully kilning freshly split logs.  I used to use my diesel powered kiln which can dry around 24 cubic metres split logs at a time.  It uses around 600 litres of red diesel to fire it for 5 or 6 days.  This will just about dry split logs if they are already partly dried.  That is the equivalent to around £1000 worth of electricity.  I no longer use my kiln for drying firewood, because it is too time consuming and expensive and takes up loads of indoor space.

[Dieselgen17]

11 hours ago, Big J said:

Hi there, and welcome to the forum.

 

I'll address your questions as best I can:

 

• It's not worth £50 a tonne standing. Top notch, sawlog grade douglas fir or western red cedar on an easy site is, but not firewood grade hardwood. £5-25 would be reasonable, depending on access and quality.
• Income from your woodland is only tax free if you don't process it. The moment you chop it for logs, or mill it, it's subject to income tax.
• Your standing cubic metre of firewood will produce about 1.8 cubic metres of logs (depending on the size of the logs). Average is around £100/cubic metre nationally, so assuming 575 standing cube, you've 1035 split cube, or just over £100k. 
• Kiln drying firewood from an electrical supply is economically unfeasible. Completely unfeasible. The cost per cubic metre would be massive.  I used to run electrically heated kilns for drying sawn timber, and the cost per cubic metre was about £70 in electricity. Now for sawn timber going out at £900-1400 a (solid) cube, that's not an issue. For firewood at £200 (per solid cube) it is. And sawn timber dries much more easily than firewood as it's easier to direct airflow evenly. And sawn boards are nearly always air dried first, so in real terms, the electricity cost of heating with electricity could be somewhere near £100/solid cube (£50/split loose cube). I did try one load of firewood in my kiln once, but I never did it again.
• Given that the kiln would need to be biomass powered, I don't think it's feasbile to make it portable.

Sorry to be universally negative, but I think that the project is a non starter. I'd advise simply employing the services of a harvesting contractor and selling the timber standing. 

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated. 

[Dieselgen17]

10 hours ago, Squaredy said:

Yes Big J has it spot on.  What you have proposed is in fact a bit like a farmer saying he is going to build a bakery as he has calculated he can sell his wheat for a much better price if he mills it and turns it into bread.

 

It is very easy to overlook the amount of time space and energy it will use to chop, split, dry, and store 21 lorry loads of logs.  Also of course you then have to start marketing your end product and delivering it to hundreds of customers. 

Thanks very much. I do realize it is a colossal amount of work. I didn’t realize the kiln drying issues/ costs. Just looking for a way to derive a bit more cash out of my assets. Probably the only time I will get a “crop” out of the woods in my lifetime. We are lucky enough to have the storage facilities etc so just investigating options. 

[otter]

Just out of interest, how many acres gives you 600 cube?  Species, size and is clear fell?  

I'd be interested to know