Neighbours 50ft tree/conifer 2m away from property. Advice gratefully recieved!

[Dman77]

Hi Friendly tree experts.

 

Ive already checked in this section of the forum to see if my problem can be solved. There are similar threads but not exactly the same. Id appreciate some advice.

 

We are buying a house (early stages) and we are really worried that the neighbours 50ft ish tree/conifer which is 2m (trunk) away from our potential property (kitchen corner of the house) has roots all around our foundations waiting to cause untold destruction/subsidence.

No obvious cracks in exterior walls (no survey yet) but father inlaw has said to pull out the sale immediately as subsidence is a real possibility in ?years.

 

First of all - can anyone tell me what this is? This is a view from a neighbour (next to tree owner). Thats my potential house side wall.

 

 

 

(Never uploaded so hope that worked)

 

Based on that tree, what roots are likely? Shallow/deep, known for damage?

This is deep surrey near M25 and told clay is likely. House built mid 50,s.

 

I really dont want to start a long process unnecessarly if you kind folk think id be nuts to touch a property with this massive thing 2 meters away

Ps the neighnour also has 4 smaller ones half height of this 1 m each away along the boundary so probably root city down there

 

Any comments welcome. We really are stressing over this.

Cheers all

Dave

[Dman77]

Update - if anyone is interested

 

A surveyor came around for a quick check organised by the estate agent.

 

He was relatively happy. He apparently knew the area very well. Claimed the soil was not clay (further down the hill 1/2 mile away was more clay he stated).

 

He said the tree had already been cut at one point (hence the wide bushy shape and not the usually pointy end of the conifer at the top).

 

He said given the age of the house, conifers less moisture hungry and shallower roots & no obvious cracks (possibly a few small settlement cracks inside the house) he said it wouldnt worry him but the trees do have to be dealth with (cropped down again).

 

We still want an official building survey, an arboriculturalist to view tree and possible even cameras to look down the drains. We will also call insurance in the next day or two to get the low down from an insurance point of view.

 

But overall, we seem a bit happier with surveyors report and will progress to more checks.

 

Cheers all

Dave

[sloth]

Thanks for the update, always appreciated...

[Gary Prentice]

A bit of information from Cutler & Richardson book, Tree Roots and Building, 1st Edition, based on the Kew Root Survey and on which the NHBC guidelines are based.

 

The Water Demand Table is from NHBC Guideline, Chapter 4.2 (2017)

PRINT SCREEN - MASTER COPY.doc

[Dman77]

Thats really interesting Gary, useful information.

 

Am I right in saying the Lelandii (if we have a cypruss) are not actually shallow root spreaders then? This seems to indicate that in clay they can grow quite deep.

I guess it depends on the ground (eg soil/clay)

[eggsarascal]

Where does that Down pipe on the corner of the house go?

 

Have you got any pictures of the ground around the tree?

[Gary Prentice]

Thats really interesting Gary, useful information.

 

Am I right in saying the Lelandii (if we have a cypruss) are not actually shallow root spreaders then? This seems to indicate that in clay they can grow quite deep.

I guess it depends on the ground (eg soil/clay)

 

Lots of work has gone into trying to predict which trees will cause damage by extracting moisture. To be blunt, we can't. Giles Biddle along with the Arb Association (I think) did a load of computer modelling, developed programs and then reviewed their result against existing subsidence cases.

 

They were only right around 50% of the time. So, does anyone really want to base their decision on the same odds as flipping a coin?

 

Looking at what is known.

 

The property is within the zone of influence of the trees - so on a shrinkable clay soil there is a potential for subsidence.

 

There are cracks present, identified as settlement cracks by the surveyor (but the building is 60 years old - settlement cracks usually appear soon after the build)

 

It's been claimed that although on a clay soil, it's not on a shrinkable clay. I assume there's been no actual site soil tests though?

 

The house was built in the 1950's, pre-NHBC guidelines on foundation depths, and the foundation depths are currently unknown.

 

So trees present, clay soil of unknown shrink/swell potential, unknown foundation depth! Personally, I'd be very careful and wanting to make a very informed decision going forward. We haven't had a serious subsidence event year for a long while - really dry summer/a low rainfall winter to replenish soil moisture deficits.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[treequip]

Thats really interesting Gary, useful information.

 

Am I right in saying the Lelandii (if we have a cypruss) are not actually shallow root spreaders then? This seems to indicate that in clay they can grow quite deep.

I guess it depends on the ground (eg soil/clay)

 

What Garry hasn't mentioned is that Cutler and Richardson, the authors of that document got so concerned about the use of the data that they distanced themselves from it and describing it's the use as inappropriate and statically limited.

 

Having nothing else but a flawed data set they used it anyway.

 

It is though the source of much and repeated scare mongering when the Sunday papers are short of copy, which is probably why your FIL was concerned.

[Gary Prentice]

They may have done, but it is still the basis for foundation depths in NHBC Chapter 4.2, the zones of influence for tree species and referred to in subsidence cases.

 

Yes, it is flawed - limited statistical input in both numbers of cases and geographical distribution, but it's all we've got!

 

No-one can accurately predict which tree will lead to subsidence or why one will and one wont in near identical circumstances, according to Giles Biddle/Martyn Dobson in their seminars, so I'm afraid that information is the best we have.

[Dman77]

Crikey this is all bit scary.

 

-No, I stupidly didn't think to take photos of the ground around. The down pipe I think it just went to a drain. On the inside of the wall about 3 m to the left is the garage which has the sewage pipe running down inside it. The surveyor couldn't find the manhole cover while he was there.

 

I totally agree with being as informed as possible but I guess we still wont know what can happen. Maybe the insurance will make the difference.

 

Its silly to think that no one would buy this house because of this tree.

 

so in a nutshell 1. Get the soil/clay/depth looked at. 2? er..can you find out the depth of foundations.

[eggsarascal]

When a friend of mines son wanted to build upwards on a single story extension we dug down next to the property to establish the depth of the foundations. The footings weren't 'man enough' to support another story.

 

How are you going to get a drain survey without a manhole?

 

Edit: I would be wary of a Surveyor that couldn't find a manhole cover. I can't remember going to a property built in the 50's that hasn't got one.

Edited April 16, 2017 by eggsarascal