A public "good" must be paid for from the public purse

[drinksloe]

So wot about the timber industry??

 

Should we take away all the planting grants? All the grants for boimass/RHI payments which are propping up ratesthe firewood industry?? Aswell as keeping pulp/chip rates higher.

How many contractors are now making a living/sideline selling firewood?

 

It's very easy to blame grants/farmers, the grants are set up by EU wot are farmers meant to do turn this free money down? (as i seriously doubt the EU would just gift it back to UK)

 

If u use ur tatties anology, u haven't paid for it twice but actually paid far less for it than u should have because its subsidised

 

Depends on the ground and type of farm ur talking about but most rougher/higher/LFA type farms will never make a profit anyway no matter who runs them, unless u amagalmate them all sack and all the staff and let animal husbandry go down the chutes

 

Only 20yrs ago in my area a decent family dairy was milking 80ish cows, 120 was massive and still quite a few small herds of 40ish.

Nowadays the few 120's are milked by robots and many dairies are now 200+ with a few into the thousands of cows.

With the modern breeding the average lifespan has decreased from 20ish years to 7ish years with any bull calfs born totally worthless, but it also has meant yields/profits have went up. So must be a good thing??

Yet in most other countries a family can still survive on milking 40 cows, eve in middle of Canada where milk tankers have to drive for 12hrs to pick up the milk.

 

Wot would u prefer all our meat and milk came from battery type farms where cattle are raised entirley in sheds as that is more profiable?

 

Personally i'm more than happy to see subsidies to try and keep farms smaller more family orientated units rather than big factory farms.

If the farms merge and workers are slashed, where's the work going to come from in rural areas? Who's kids are going to fill vilage schools and keep local village shops open (if there is many left)

[Marko]

I really can't believe that the £90/acre subsidy payment is pushing land prices. A 1% return is hardly attention grabbing. Around here land prices are driven by speculators rather than 'armchair' farmers; it is rising population and the associated housing that is the big driver. With the average age of a UK farmer now just under 60 it is far better to sell for building (and willingly pay the capital gains tax) and get out.

 

The age of farmers is significant; the big agri industry and the supermarkets are fast running out of people daft enough to 'production manage' the little bit in the middle (the bit with the massive risk) for the moderate reward they grant. They will have no option but to step in and buy the last remaining piece of the agri jigsaw then they will own the process from seed to supermarket shelf end to end. Oh yes supermarkets, those great big employers in every town throughout the country where the taxpayer props up their labour force with Tax Credits (not subsidies of course).

 

Blame the farmers all you want but put your name down for an allotment if you want cheap food in the future.

[Billhook]

A couple more thoughts on subsidies.

 

When I started farming in 1970 there were hardly any rules. I could grow what I liked, trim trees, cut down trees, pull up hedges, put up buildings and do what I liked with the old farmhouse.(now listed)

We never did rip up the countryside as we had to live with it or mess about too much with the house. My ancestors planted most of the oaks and I and my father have planted many more because we love trees and nature

 

The money from the EU seemed ok to start with but the supermarkets soon learned how much farmers were being paid and adjusted their payment accordingly to a point where most farmers are being screwed into the ground and surviving on previous profits or diversification, selling land for building or maybe having a large farmer contract farm their land.

 

With the payments came all the rules, and there are so many rules that a farmer may as well not own his land. Sort of nationalisation by the back door.

If the rules are broken there is a fine imposed by a little bureaucrat somewhere that is disproportionate to the offence and there is no judge and jury.

 

For instance a tractor driver may be distracted for a second ploughing the headlands and cut into the field margin only by a few inches and the fine is imposed across the whole farm and may be several thousands of pounds.

Certainly more than I would be fined for mugging an old lady or shoplifting.

 

The politicians have achieved exactly what they wanted, and that was to control the farmers who are all runnng around like blue arsed flies trying to adhere to these rules. The supermarkets make more rules and fines.

 

The value of the wheat in a £1.00 loaf is only about 5p so you can see where the profit goes.

 

I am the average age of a British farmer at 63 and if it was all a bed of roses where are all the young farmers?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Billhook

[matelot]

Farming must be one of the few industries that makes the country poorer. I get a train through a main fruit growing region of the UK. In fruit picking season there are literally hundreds of migrants picking fruit on each farm. They'll all be on minimum wage (if that )and claiming in work benefits.

 

So we have an industry that claims billions in subsidies and requires the taxpayer to subsidise their workforce. It hardly seems an industry that does much good for us....

 

If farmers cant compete we should just import more food...

[drinksloe]

Well written billhook.

 

Another thing that often comes up with farmers is folk moaning about the nice motors they drive.

 

But nowadays ike most folk a lot of the motors will be on the never never (u only have to drive round a housing estate to see plenty of fancy motors or where boy racers gather all on the HP) and no doubt will be registered throu the business as a tax dodge.

 

Sometimes farmers don't help themselves, a mate (young dairy farmer, oldish focus before anyone ask's) was trlling me about 1 local farmer having a right goo moan at the vets about money before jumping into his brand new Jag.

But at same time he rents a lot of ground, his business/assets probably would be worth millions if he was to sell up and thats without owning ground. Althou i bet he'd make a bigger profit of his money sticking it in the bank even at low interest rates

So wots wrong with him driving a Jag, i bet many other bosses with assets of that value an worked bloody hard all there lifes would not be grudges a fancy car as they retire

 

 

And even if the subsidy has paid for that fancy motor, is that not proof that the subsidy money is shared round local businesses even outside agriculture.

[drinksloe]

Farming must be one of the few industries that makes the country poorer. I get a train through a main fruit growing region of the UK. In fruit picking season there are literally hundreds of migrants picking fruit on each farm. They'll all be on minimum wage (if that )and claiming in work benefits.

 

So we have an industry that claims billions in subsidies and requires the taxpayer to subsidise their workforce. It hardly seems an industry that does much good for us....

 

If farmers cant compete we should just import more food...

 

While i see where ur coming from.

Wot happens when other countries realisewe are dependent on their produce and start to put there prices up? Or if another country or 2 decides to do the same and u start a bidding war?

Would u happily pay more for ur food?

 

I hope and dubt they're will ever be a war again, but do u really want to live on an island that doesn't even try to be self sufficent?

 

Plus at a time of rising fuel costs and carbon footprint d u really think we should be abandoning UK farms as some sort of urban wknd playground and ship food in?

 

Do u care wot conditions this foriegn food/animals are grown/kept in?

Or is all meat the same to u wether horse or beef?

 

When u see a modern UK farm its hard to see how any country could look after the stock as well and produce product any more efficently.

The wage/land price cost of living is wot puts the price up but u really have no idea wot other countries are doing.

It really wasn't that long ago that 'angel dust' was fairly normal in rogue farmers beef cattle only accross the irish sea, it could still be going on elswhere

[wrsni]

A couple more thoughts on subsidies.

 

................................................

 

Excellent post sir!

 

To single out one thing, it is indeed hard to predict who will be farming the land in another 20yrs as there seems to be an increasing issue whereby many farms do not have a willing successor, but by contrast there are lots of young "would be" farmers who do not have sufficient land. There are exceptions as ever, but our present subsidy system seems to have created a generation of young "farmers" who are more interested in creating a continuous flow of "Grassmen" type videos for youtube than actually farming efficiently.

 

My daughter does relief milking as a sideline to keep a few quid coming in while she's at university and it seems to be the same complaint from all the older farmers, no work in the young ones! I suppose she benefits as they all treat her very well and pay her well when they find out that she's both very reliable but more importantly, genuinely keen in getting to know the stock and do a decent job. But while it's to her benefit at present, it's also an indication that things are not right.

Edited March 28, 2017 by wrsni

[wrsni]

If farmers cant compete we should just import more food...

 

You might want to read up a bit on the ongoing Brazilian meat scandal.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Just answer these 2 likely lads first, then get back to catching up with the rest of the thread.....

 

Aye, hang on indeed!! Pathetic.

 

Cuz ones subsidised and the other........ Oh hang on.

 

I thought it would get round to banking and bale-outs... Kind of inevitable. Whilst being as far removed from supporting chair shiners as a person could probably be, I just want to highlight that financial services contributes to the UK economy something like: employing over 7% of the UK workforce, producing nearly 12% of total economic output, contributing £66bn in taxes and generating a trade surplus of £72bn.

 

That there is too big a chunk of contribution to UK GDP to lose and thus the bale out.

 

+ of course, that particular bale-out resulted in public ownership of large parts of the establishments baled out and significant regulatory changes to operating procedure.

 

What part of any farm that has ongoing subsidy now belongs to the public estate?

 

 

Enjoyed that..... Was it the SNP party conference after show?

 

Lots of people are subsidised. Child Benifit, tax credits, housing benefit, the list is endless.

 

Should I get a tax rebate because Mrs Egg and I have never claimed these benefits?

 

The list isn't endless Mr E, but it IS a good deal longer for those claiming ag subsidy than it is for most others: Rebated diesel, reduced council tax, excemption from capital gain tax, exemption from business rates, exemptions from planning regs to name but a few.....

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Going to take a minute or 2 to read all the replies....

 

Anybody see the BBC2 Newsnight piece last night?

 

I particularly liked the guy from the Lakes, he has a small farm which never has, nor will be profitable and he relies heavily upon subsidy. He'd never give it up though because it's his love, his life, his passion etc (my paraphrase.)

 

If only I could find a way of getting someone else to pay for my lifestyle hobby, now that would be grand!