MWArb

Hahaha another husky unicorn... I'll stick with my aspen hybrid can. Just clip on and go

This is something that has to be considered.. as far as I'm aware, student numbers meant that combining the courses kept them on the calendar.. I think perhaps each subject is deep enough to split, its down to signup numbers wether or not we can feasibly do it... personally I feel students would benefit.

Cost is something I can't affect, we'd all like education to be cheaper for sure.

Some poeple clearly lack the spiritual side.. (not talking religion here) a happy soul makes a happy man, how do they know where you were heading over the last few years.. seems to me like your well on track if you ask me

Nptc should be harder for sure or we need a new level in order to sort the ones who've gone well past competence, then you'd know if it was a trainee or full arborist you were hiring and would be well prepared for taking a trainee on if that's the case

The issue of no single governing body is one the industry needs to address.. how can we all know what's best? This goes to all the employers also.. most students after a week of work experiance are telling me they know better cos their boss said this or that.. industry and employers have a bigger role to play in their education than they want to take responsability for.. the finished product has to be both college basics and industry tought.. undermining the colleges efforts is counter productive

This can't be helped.. we can train to the highest standard but only those willing to try will actually succeed.. people mistaken the fact that they've come from college with the fact they've got the toughness and desire to actually do the job.

Add to that the fact that we are now tasked with teaching them maths and english by law... Sorry but I was blindly of the impression that they were supposed to learn that between 4 and 16!

Mr's Blair, easy lift and Yorkshire you understand the levels we work at n college.. clearly if I have 24 students a few will make cutters, some good climbers and the rest.. I think employers need to understand your points.. we teach the basics, this doesnt mean we can't produce good learners, it simply means in bulk they can't all be good.. plus the fact that in industry nptc is the bottom.. at college its the top

Mr Fox, I'm going to try and tie your visit (see how I did that:sneaky2:, now you wanna come see me) in with a guest appearance with my newest group. We'll work out the logistics of it once I'm back at work.

This is my big problem.. I'm not claiming here to be whiter than white in my capacity as a freelancer, nor do I sit here with 15 years experience to call on , but 2 things are clear, 1: I have to teach best practice as they are all newest operators. and 2: you can't stop a lad or lass getting a couple of tickets and presuming they know it all... I make it clear to all my students that they have maybe only just earned the right to join a team, nothing more.. the tickets get the job, not the higher position.. longevity and progression must be earned! i feel this is a relatively new approach as I'm not just an Instructor but a business owner and freelance climber as well. one of the reasons I was chosen, I believem was because I was a solid connection to the industry itself rather than just the knowledge.

We have to teach forestry cuts and on a real fc contract so its ground level or nothing.. obviously you learn in wider Arboriculture the sound wood may be higher or the fell simpler at different heights but for cs31, the fc and the assessor we use its the ground... The chain brake is my pet hate.. if I hear it snap on at high revs I'm furious, there's no need... More importantly you want it in tip top shape incase the inertia brake is needed and that's how I tell it... The modernising of arb instruction is a big task.. as I've mentioned before, Arboriculture moves quickly but education moves slowly.. that said, its in our interest to produce lads and lasses you want in your teams.

Mr fox I know the feeling and love your enthusiasm, its infectious. The winter can be hard on us, but the buzz of a good crew in tree work or in this case group at college, makes it great fun.. the sence of achievement when learners start performing is addictive

Believe it or not we do tell them from the start to cut at ground level.. some just don't listen.

I feel I was similar but as I was older the grown up in me did all this.. there are many like this in a group, and they are already climbing well, focused with the saw and ground tasks.. college worked well for me, and dare I say it so far I've done well from it but there's always room for improving and I think we can make even the slowest starters good, given the time and more importantly getting the right person entered at the right level in order to stop those getting overwhelmed with the courses they undertake

Your exactly right.. the issue is within the industry aswell.. what I'm proposing is a need for both educational reform but also the resources to send students out without the useless and slow tag either scaring them off the work or worse changing their chosen vocation which without ridicule they may well have blossomed in.. obviously you can't train incompetence out of some, but that's all subjects

Does that mean we can't strive for it? at least producing a competent learner able to do the list dan describes earlier in thread

The issue here is entry requirement for level 3 is a level 2 or equal (not necessarily in same subject) so learner can be totally capable of level 3 knowledge but struggle to practically apply themselves.. this is a species issue I feel.. we can't all be good in many areas.

I think the only means to do all that we need to with them, is the shift to longer and more often practical sessions you yourself have clearly found a few that are hard to install skills into, the same is inside the college system as with all other subjects i'm sure.. the three level structure proposed in future may start us towards more working time and classrooms free for higher levels learning the theory. it will always be a struggle to get those academically good to chose a level 1 or 2 when they can do a level 3 and I believe we can be stronger in our advice on that. with more doing the levels one and two I believe it'll be hard for someone with a one year level 3 to find work over lads and lasses who have learned well practically over more sessions on the lower level. This could long term help ward against joining the system higher up.

This has to be taken into consideration long term I think.. The only difficult issue I can see is resources.. we would need placement's for large numbers of students and a way of monitoring their progress as well as a way of instructing them in house with enough real work for them to do with us as well. forgive my ignorance, how do irata structure it? are there enough jobs for all students throughout an academic year? or am I thinking on the wrong time scale?

Your spot on Dan, the whole reason for this thread is to help change that. I have been sharing this opinion with the college since I started there, I'm a product of the college as a mature student and from both student and now instructor side I feel that in education in general the courses are perhaps now outdated in structure, are we trying to teach too much? I don't overestimate my own experience level in this matter, and wont pretend to know more than I do, I learn constantly while on the job myself and have plenty to learn. Imo it takes time, working often, to see enough variety of jobs, in order for a complete climber to have the understanding of most climbing scenarios. however it should only take a minute to understand the machine that is a crew. The message is clear, there needs to be the knowledge of our industry but it has to be backed up with actual work, well organised and when their ready under pressure of time and conditions if possible. The hardest part for education I believe is resources. There has to be a logistically simple way of getting them real work. problem is as you describe, time as they say is money and while learning and practicing students take time gaining skills as we all did but is there place for them to learn in an industry that's built on efficiency?

Certainly can my friend... I was only today discussing the possibility of splitting the forestry and arb course back into their respective models.. Student uptake numbers originally lead to the combining of forestry and Arboriculture but maybe now is the time they change that... The forestry part of both the lvl 2 and 3 are lacking imo, better resources would help.. Perhaps more forestry managers would come forward and offer contracts for training.. we can always use more resources and the students would get first hand experiance of real work. The logistics of unqualified staff on site is often a turn off but can be overcome easily enough I feel.

Kev again your thinking like me.. I'm not sure one a health and safety level how far we can push them, I can imagine parents complaining if its to harsh (we have to look after them haha). However, I've already had them climbing in decent wind (not insane but strong enough) and offered those that were prepared to a chance to climb in horrid rain.. this certainly sorted the weak from the strong as far as mental toughness goes and left me with a group on the ground watching while 2 lads and one lass hammered it out at 65ft For now I'd like to keep the college name out of it, those that know me, know where I work but I ask them to also keep the college name out of it for now.. besides i believe this is about more than just our college.. this is an industry problem and reform is needed both inside and outside the education sector.

We're possibly offering a lvl 1 for those that struggle with the academic side of things. Good to know we're starting to think the right way. The balance between industry requirements and the "business" of colleges is of great importance to me hence this thread.. we as a college need to be ready to adapt to what's needed from both industry and students.

Hodge your bang on, this is the reason for this thread.. reform starts from within.. my college is changing.. they've listened to the call for practically skilled students rather than brain box's.. knowledge is needed but in its own time.. skills are the key to a good employee.