JayVee

Regarding import. It depends on the type of wood.

Hi all, The EUR 50 per tight cubic metre sounds very cheap. If it's quality stuff then that is bargain price. If you convert that to GBP and loose cubic metres you are looking at below GBP 30 for the loose cube. County4X4 is right. That cannot include haulage. Which can and will easily double the price.

If there is demand at 80-100 then it's no joke. It makes perfect sense.

In the words of the Guv: I was never confused. Albedo. Your point was clear from the begining: Having a reference point to show the clients, in itself a good indicator to the client "see I know what I am talking about". My point was to take it a little broader than your original post. In that both options, even going to the work of stacking them one by one, is not necessarily out of the question.

This is a commodity business. In principle it doesn't differ one iota from the trade in oil, trade in wheat, trade in gold. It is simply supply and demand. If (as you clearly are) are stating exactly what the buyer will get and you deliver what you promise, then what ever price you and the buyer come to an agreement at is the fair price/value. Good luck to you, it's smart business sense.

Is there a fight going on here or am I just a sensitive soul? In regards to stacked or loose. I would say each to their own. This is a business we are talking about, each and every one should do what works for them. But as I stated earlier, rules are on their way and it makes sense to be prepared. Otherwise one ends up moaning about things one will have no control over. Both stacked and loose should be allowed and proponents of each way can use good sales arguments to make their points: Stacked. If your clients are living in a city the likelihood is that they will have limited space. Stacked saves space and of course they should then be paying a premium for getting them nicely stacked. That premium takes in to account the time and cost involved in stacking them. Sales pitch goes like this: YOU: “Oh you have limited space, then you absolutely need them stacked? No problem, we can deliver stacked at GBP XX per cube, would you like two cubic metres now instead of the one you are asking for, since you get more wood for the same space as a loose cube? One delivery instead of two will save you money on the transport costs and with this winter the way it is you might need more firewood than normal?” Client: “What a super idea! Let’s do that. Two cubes stacked please.” You “Great and if you recommend us to your neighbours or friends and they end up buying, with the next order I’ll give you a bag of free kindling” CHICHING goes the cash register. You have just sold two cubes instead of one with one delivery and provided your product is good, you have just created a person who will refer you to others in the same area creating a good cluster of a client base. That’s the argument for stacked. Then for the argument for loose: YOU “Oh you want them neatly stacked? I understand, but why would you pay extra for them to be in a neat pile? You are going to burn them at a quick rate anyway in this winter. Why not order two loose cubes now so you won’t run out in this cold spell? OK it will take up a bit more space, but log for log it will add up to more than one stacked cube and you won’t have to pay for the expense of stacking. It will save you money.” Client “What a super idea! Let’s do that. Two loose cubes please” You “Great and if any of you recommend us to your neighbours and they end up buying, with the next order I’ll give you a bag of free kindling” CHICHING goes the cash register. You do see where I am going with this right? I know a few posters on this site have mentioned similar tactics. It really does set the men from the boys. Always be thinking of the way you like to do your daily business and think of selling points based on that and then use them to grow your business. There are always two sides to a debate. Use the one that benefits you most and make the deals. From the above example both arguments are fair, because they are both true, the client still knows exactly what he is getting.

That's really spot on dj. As an indicator of value to the end client you can't get better than what you suggest. No doubt about it. However, I think many people would not put the effort in to study and understand the calculations. I think the volume (cubic metres) will become the standard. For the simple reason that it is very easy to see in the minds eye. A metre times a metre times a metre is easy to "understand" it is tangible. Having said that, and I agree with IC Trees on this, regulation would actually be good for the business, one of the criteria could be that firewood dealers understand and are able to explain the heat output of different woods in the manner that djbobbins states.

Michael, As I stated in another thread regarding the discussion on cubic metres. Here's a good rule of thumb: 1 SOLID m3 = 1.54 STACKED m3 = 2.5 THROWN m3 1 STACKED m3 = 0.65 SOLID m3 = 1.63 THROWN m3 1 THROWN m3 = 0.62 STACKED m3 = 0.4 SOLID m3

Interesting thread this. As the meddling foreigner on this thread I will throw in my opinion once again including a predictions as to what will happen with the firewood market in the UK. It's a little long, but please bare with me, I'm sure some of the pros on here will find this of interest. Firstly Albedo is a savy chappy for bringing this up and he is very much ahead of the curve on this. And here comes my prediction: It is only a question of time until legislation starts to affect firewood sales. The business is growing at such a rate in the UK as well as the sale of wood stoves that the bureaucrats and politicians will stick their fingers in. This is how it will progress: They will set up “working groups” and pay consultants to make “feasibility studies” in to how the sale of firewood will be regulated so that the consumer’s rights are taken care of. The people conducting these studies will naturally do one or both of two things: a) look towards the EU for guidance b) Look at how countries who already have a thriving firewood sector legislate the trade. If they go the “a” route they will be guided by the Eurocrats to take the “b” route. This means that the study will centre on the Nordic countries and the Baltics (EU members with thriving firewood markets). In Finland where the market is massive and chock-a-block with part time and small producers, firewood (cut and split 10-12 inches) is always sold by the cubic metre. Always. This is what will happen in the UK in the future. You can fight it, you can dislike it, but you might as well get with the programme, because inevitably it is coming. The question about air has been an issue on this thread. And rightly so. There is an easy solution to this. In Finland cut and split logs are sold by quoting either “loose cubic metre” or “stacked cubic metre” (“solid cubic metre” is used mainly for cord wood). There is a simple rule of thumb factor that takes into account the “air” or lack thereof so that you can easily calculate how much you are getting. That factor is this: 1 SOLID m3 = 1.54 STACKED m3 = 2.5 LOOSE m3 1 STACKED m3 = 0.65 SOLID m3 = 1.63 LOOSE m3 1 LOOSE m3 = 0.62 STACKED m3 = 0.4 SOLID m3 This is not law, but is an industry standard (there is a law for cord and longer lengths, which I refer to in another thread. That should not be confused with the above). As for wetness. There are only two kinds of wood: “Seasoned” or “fresh” anything with a moisture content under 25 % is “seasoned”. (I am still referring to the market in Finland) The coming legislation for the UK will not happen overnight, earliest three years probably closer to five, but if the industry does continue to grow at this rate it will inevitably come. Those traders who realise this and position themselves accordingly will survive and adapt. They can also use the knowledge of the coming changes as unique selling points and strengthening customer loyalty, by not just being a deliverer of wood, but a respected expert by the client. Albedo I wish you the best of luck, you are on the right track. Oh and one more thing. The above is not meant to slate the UK industry. I am simply bringing to the debate a perspective from another market, which I hope will be of interest to the pros on this thread. That’s my well seasoned loose cubic metres worth on the subject.

Good advice here from guys who know what they are doing. Never, ever go back and offer more for free. As stated earlier, it becomes expected and the client may think you short changed him. No way to start a business relationship. If you delivered what was agreed and did a fair transaction then that's that. Pat yourself on the back. Varty's suggestion of having a drink and getting the subject on to your logs is absolutely spot on. In business school they call that "after sales" and "business intelligence gathering". I would call it common sense and the right thing to do. Good luck to you.

My apologies for the late reply, yesterday was Finnish Independence Day and I was out celebrating it accordingly. To business then. On this thread there have been some incorrect comments and I will address them first. On the matter of debarking. Birch brought in to the UK need not be debarked. Please check this with the Forrestry Commission. There is no point in me arguing a point that is a fact. It was stated here that a cubic metre of birch costs more than a tonne of the same wood. This also is incorrect. A solid cubic metre of fresh felled birch will weigh in at around 800 kilos. As for the container question which seems to have caused some disagreement. This may well be my fault and be a miscommunication in language. I am a Finnish not English. Let me attempt to make this clear. The normal quoted cubic metre for log sales in Europe always refers to a stacked cubic metre NOT a solid cubic metre. Perhaps others have been referring to solid cubic metres. In which case all parties are correct. It does not however change the end result, which would be a little under 100 loose cubic metres of firewood. As I have stated from the get go. The Finnish wood market is one of the largest and most liquid in the world. All measurements are regulated by law. If my original offer is converted into SOLID cubic metres there is a legal formula in Finland which takes in to account the length, curvature, stacking and the branches of the underlying wood to determine a SOLID cubic metre amount. Regarding the wood I offered, that amount comes to 38 solid cubic metres. In turn, that amount will still yield under 100 loose cubic metres of wood. As I have stated all the time. We are a broker of wood, this means we buy from several suppliers all over Finland, prices are always quoted as stacked cubic metres, which is the standard in Finland and the rest of Europe. Once again I stress that this is regulated by law and it is an open and transparent market. We know what we are getting and what it will yield as do our clients. As brokers this is a small margin business, which is dependent totally on volume and repeat business with the same clientele base. It simply isn’t worth the paperwork and hassle for a few hundred euros to deliver something that the end client is disappointed in. We know what we are getting and we always make sure our clients know exactly what they are getting before the deal is struck. We pride ourselves on being boring Finns, with us no one is ever surprised. As for the law I stated. Because of the misunderstandings that have arisen I highly recommend the wood calculation formula that is the legally accepted form in Finland. This was passed into law in 1997 and has remained unchanged, which is testament to its accuracy. I have it as an excel spreadsheet, because it helps to immediately calculate different quality and length of timber into a comparable number. If anyone would like it please PM me and I will translate it into English and you can have a go yourself. With that very long statement I hope I have cleared things up a little. Our normal trade is in cut and split birch logs. I sourced longer lengths and arranged the logistics based on the fact that I received so many PM’s and emails requesting quotes for cordwood. Due to the confusion arisen out of my offer, in hindsight this was a mistake. It was never my intention to confuse anyone. To quote my favourite British comedy series: I was never confused.

Intra EU market is not imported. It is "intra community trade." A container packed (as slasherscot rightly states) is volume wise 65 cubic metres. The over all yield of said load (taking into consideration "broken stowage") if calculated in to cut and split 12 inch logs is around 1.5 times. So you are looking at getting around 97.5 cubic metres of loose filled logs. That equates to under GBP 49 per cubic metre loose filled (obviously you need to add cost of work and machinery use to that). Is that a good price for the UK? That's not for me to say. But the offer is there, if you can get it sold on at a decent profit to yourselves at that price then I am happy to help.

Thanks for the comments. In regards to Tommer9's comment about the dryness, the wood is in inland Finland where the climate is significantly drier than the UK. As Santa Cruz states, when cut and split the amount in cubes is significantly more. As to why in containers, which is a fair and common question. It comes down to logistics. The container is a 40 foot open top container so the wood is filled from the top. There are many transition points along the way and putting it in a standard container means that packing and unloading have to happen only once: Point of collection and point of delivery. We would love to charter a whole ship to the UK (around 3300 cubic metres) and then load the wood onto log trucks on the UK end, but that would necessitate a large scale buyer(s) on the UK side. It would be a lot of capital being tide up for about two weeks. If anyone is interested or has expertise in that kind of business please feel free to contact me.