dadio

an example of flawed logic... people have died from not following the rule book, therefore we should never use any technique outside the rule book.. That would simply stall the development of any new techniques in this biz..

This is a perfect example... everyone is entitled to their opinion and of course should do only what they feel comfortable and judge as safe in the field, so to say I would not use the cut is one thing, but to call it unsafe is another.. what makes it unsafe????? You can say I was not in control, but I can show video of a dozen or more trees coming down in the exact same manner every time...

Yes I AM... parading it around touting it as safe... absolutely safe, in that it stands alone as a safe cut, having used it over 1000 times... certainly you could bring the cut down to chest level if it would make you feel better... BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ITS RELATIVELY SAFE... that is safer than many other options... for example, climbing and rigging the top, falling the supporting tree, perhaps even fooling around with a winch & making a notch on the top side... simply calling the cut unpredictable or unsafe does not make it so... where did you get that idea?... what evidence can use to support that argument, logic, empirical evidence, anything????? I simply have not heard anyone provide a reasonable argument against the use of this cut in some 20 pages of heated discussion... of course when the facts don't support your case, you can always fall back on name calling, which seems to be the case here..

I was referring to this statement Steve..

What specifically makes it unpredictable? certainly not where the butt is going to fall.... the factors that are going to casue a difference in tension or comprssion are understandable and therefore "predictable". So the only thing that I can tink of that could be considered unpredictable would be the exact timing of the release... though that's a stretch... calling me or the technique names doesn't do much to further the conversation or understanding

are we at the point of saying that no new cuts can be developed.... or that all acceptable cuts are already in the "book"?

+1... SWEEEEET! Surprised you Bits aren't getting on about unknown forces on the ropes etc... I say... trees on the ground.. good one... with all the $ saved, you can buy a new rope if ya like...

That is exactly what I AM saying.. everyone that has called this cut unpredictable must not have used it... I have used it over 1000 times... the but always drops straight down and slightly in towards the supporting tree... UNLESS the tree is top heavy, which is extremely rare scenario. So it may look scary, and even FEEL scary when making the cut, but it is safe!.. just because this is a cut you have not been taught or shown before does not make it unreliable... just unfamiliar.. how can you cast such judgments without trying it yourself? When I call it safer, I mean in the largest possible sense... someone shared a story of a death resulting from the cutter trying to fall the supporting tree.. If he had been familiar with the plunged vertical snap cut, he would have had another option.. perhaps he had access to a winch or equipment that could have pulled the tree free.. maybe not... either way he made a choice that cost him his life... if he had known of another choice that worked as well and as reliable as this cut, he would have most likely been home for dinner.. So the question is not.. is this cut safer than textbook methods (which I could argue it is). the real question should be.. is this cut safer than other options in real world scenarios... try it sometime and let us know.. Thanks

Is it approved for use in the tree as well?... We don't have much need for it as a falling cut, more so in the tree (in east coast suburban settings).. Though I don't use it for either anymore..

if you used it one of your training sessions... would they fail you? Who makes the decisions on a cut like that? How does a cut become approved?

Have you ever used it? Its a good cut...

Is the coos bay and acceptable cut for Brits... is it taught? accredited or whatever????

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIz5Orr0QaI]tree service Paoli PA.mov - YouTube[/ame] here's a cut, first cut of this video that I "made up" to drop this big dead 18" diameter white oak limb... it was fairly quick... round 30 seconds.. no face cuts to match... kinda fun... I was trying to get the piece to drop like a stone without any rotation.. thought I had accomplished that til I saw the video.. it rotated a good bit... Next time, I'll try it with a slightly different placement of the cuts and see what happens..

coos bay would work...

That's a good question... People treat me with disrespect and then get mad because I won't answer their questions... bible says "don't cast your pearls before swine... first they trample the pearls then they trample you"... so please understand if I decline to answer your question... I think it is a worthy subject for discussion though... Perhaps some of the elders here would like to suggest a cut for taking off a large horizontal limb... 50' long, 26" diameter... a tree unto itself... I suspect most climbers would piece it out.. there are other options...

Ain't got no disciples... people think I'm crazy... they make fun of me.... call me names and laugh at me... so let them figure it out for themselves... Camera doesn't lie though... let's see what you got... any takers?

In footlocking the difference is just an average good climber vs a world record holder.. When someone breaks 10 seconds, he'll make history... I used to always wonder how my climbing teacher could be so fast... he didn't really seem to be doing anything extraordinary, yet he'd get monster trees on the ground or pruned amazingly quickly... He had honed every aspect of climbing, rigging and cutting, to eliminate any wasted time. Every part of his game was done with mastery, not rushing, but the kind of fast that comes from smooth and methodical fluidity. The groundlmen didn't wait for him, he waited for them. Though I could never hope to match his athleticism and climbing skills, I did take the lesson to heart and learned to apply it to the one area where I could, cutting..... So I worked for years at learning to handle the saw with maximum efficiency, eliminating any wasted movement or time. Polishing the skills on the ground, so I could trust my life with them when used aloft. And it paid off... I suppose a lot of that has to do with topography.. I work in a market where there is often room to drop a tree in a tight drop zone if you have the skill and confidence. Most around here don't, so its a competitive advantage... that's my bread and butter. Back to the point... its amazing to me how arborists spend so much time and $ improving their climbing techniques, yet so little time focusing on saw handling.. Saw handling is a big part of the game, and learning to shave seconds off every cut really adds up.. And more importantly, good cutting skills often preclude the need to climb and rig, taking the entire crew out of potentially dangerous situations. That said, the next time any of you are making a cut on a horizontal limb over 20" diameter, put a clock on it and let us know... 23 seconds is the unofficial world record... LOL

Tell that to all those pesky footlockers at climbing competitions..

And so should we share these "all manner of different cuts" on video, or keep them to ourselves, so as not to "confuse" the newbies? ps... next time you're cutting any limb over 15", put a clock on the cut... that's one of the things I like about video, is the ability to get an accurate time on any particular task..

What's the big deal about inventing a cut? Most are just variations of existing cuts.. slightly tweaked.. others are more outside the box... I recently cut a large Norway Maple limb, 50' long, nearly horizontal, 26" diameter, in 23 seconds... with a stock 066 and 25" bar.. That was fun..

there are so many variables in any tree cutting scenario.. too much to put into a book.. though the books may be a good starting point, we should not confine our work to their teachings.. Who makes the determination on what constitutes a safe and acceptable technique? In one conversation with a rep from Stihl about the open face notch, she said she'd have to check and see if they could associate themselves with any other cut besides what was shown in their manuals.. pretty limited perspective. What if a new cut was invented, that was far easier, safer, and more effective than the ones presently recommended.. what would it take for the new cut to become approved?

we'll get back to the banter in 2013

Merry Christmas...

I show you a cut that will prevent the bar from getting pinched... then you ask what do you do if the bar gets pinched... how much sense does that make? How about this answer... I forget... its been so long.... or How do you get any bar unpinched? You cut it free with another saw... if you can't figure that out.. you're in the wrong business...

Lkast time I pinched the bar was becasue I didn't use the plunge.. maybe 2009... if you pinch the bar, figure it out.. this isn't grade school