Tony Croft aka hamadryad

O.k lets alter the views for one second. a whole forest of close grown trees, you can and probably view it as competition with eachother for light. what if it was actualy all the trees together out competing the lower plants? and mutual support of eachother from wind etc so they can spend more reserve on heght than bulk? there is always two sides to an argument, even an argument between trees! maybe we need to stop anthromorphasising ( how on earth do you speel that!) nature?

oh perfect for adding to make my point! well posted

o.k, a tree gets old, its self compaction of the soil, age etc have lead to a dysfunctional (though not nesceseraly decayed core) over the years water and debris have entered nooks and crannies, roots have formed in included bark regions and the tree starts to lose these structural defective limbs, the laten propugules within th ewood go mental, decay the exposed wood, the tree roots into it, gets a boost, throws more root down hits the ground and hey presto, new young tissues connected with a soil matrix that is well out of reach of a now well traveld root system. second chances.

i can see this going to bits if I aint carefull! you can except that which is told to you, or you can through your life investigate and question, to find your own, ideas and thoughts and or beliefs. That is all i am doing, i have another point of view to that of darwins, for the first time since evolution was thought of, dont you find the concept worthy of a deeper look? or are you happy to just swallow what is a 150 year old thoery? what, without question? that was for skyhuck BTW

i have got to go check them out now! there is one in my gallery too. you lot have been busy while ive been away! some great discussion going on. monkey, have you tried slamming the back end of an axe against the cambium as a wounding method? the "crush" as apposed to a chop or slice, and if so what was the result?

i do try hard to explain what i mean, maybe i am not very good at this? Maybe i am just talking total doodoo! lol O.k. i believe trees have evolved from the very first moment of there development WITH fungi, so long is this relationships history that the two have influenced eachothers evolution. in so doing trees developed lifes that benifitted fungi, and vice versa, over many millenia the two became so intertwined they cannot function without one another, that decay is just the begining of a long winding journey in a trees long long and winding life. the fungi that live in on and around the tree need sustanence, if their impact was a one way street it would not have evolved such a complex affair. Inclusional, the tree embraced the fungi, and the fungi embraced the tree, and many many specialisms evolved, many of which prolong the life of even the most ancient and decrepid trees. That view is nothing new! but what i am leading too is a discussion on HOW and WHAT might be possible to adapt these proscesses to not only veteranisation techniques but also to preserving trees of an age within our towns and cities. oh and of course to learn as much from all you guys as possible! like i said i dont have all the answers, it is a Discussion?

I am familiar with the writing of richard dawkins, the god delusion, selfish gene etc. NO not where I am going.

now imagine applying gentle pressure to the limb on the lower right hand side allowing it to extend, dropping eventualy to the ground, stabalising the other half, get a tripod going and eternal life and habitat security is assured. along with any fungal colonies within the woody matrix! great photo

This is what I am trying to achieve here in part anyway. A big cut is not always a hack cut, the right guy can do it for all the right reasons, but he best have a darn good explanation for the motives! or we risk opening the floodgates to a bunch of hackers. its going to be a long time before anyone iether admits to or is going to administer what in some case is the only route to long term viability. decay is not always one way proscess

How would it save the taxpayers money? maintanence issues? sorry yep im with you, funding the planting side yes thats a goodun

The will to survive, a great one to be watching. if she doesnt lose too much in a failure this one could go on and on and on, maybe we should help?

for those that still believe the beech is a fragile beast. natures own pollards exist This beech (below )will be most likely felled soon, it lives along a footpath, deep in a wood, a SSSI, they are felling trees like this in the name of H+S no doubt. this is the sort of thing that drives me to dispair, this wood is managed by watford council under the supervision of English nature, what are they palying at? not only will this tree be felled but it wont be done in an environmentaly sympathetic way. The contractors are making a mess of this wood, and have NO idea what damage they do with that mog. Why not pollard this tree? why not if it does die from shock leave it as a monolith as habitat and why not let the wood lie as natural fodder in a site that is a sssi because of its amazing fungal diversity? if we must sacrifice trees that live a million miles from "civilisation" why not learn from them or at the very least leave the debris alone.

all good stuff:thumbup1: but lets face it most gardens havent room for the tree theyve got let alone five to fill its place! great concept, but limited use.

if shigo was the bearer of "modern arboriculture" then our generation shall be the bringers of "contemporary arboriculture" we must and are moving on. each great man enlightens us and gives us a new ground from which to set out on, it is up to each new generation of followers to "raise the game" further the rest of the world look to us, there is a reason for this!

skyhuck, the art of perpetuating ones genes is in reproduction, the longer you reproduce, the better YOUR individual genes chance of winning the "race" for want of a better terminology trees that live longer have special abilities in surviving, so it stands to reason that also their offspring will, but there is even within a species great variation of forms and strengths. what i am saying is that because of the effect some fungi tree relationships have, it has proved an advantage throughout ecological time and hence these trees genetics are still in evidence today.

I know what your saying, and I will reply to your next comment also in line. Imortality in trees has distinct advantages, How many offspring could YOU produce? victorians managed about 14 before it kiled them in childbirth! you get my point. Shedding a limb in summer is admittedly a defect, BUT if it was detrimental and not "superior" method to retention its genes would have faded away and been lost to redundancy. Trees living many centuries will have experianced great hardships in both biotic and abiotic forces, droughts would have been common throughout their life histories, droping a limb in times of drought would have very significant advantages, and it is often a very clean loss, with very little associated damge.

it is not choosing per say, but through co evolutionary prosceses, defective (potentialy) genetics, summer branch drop and even fungi have all together formed part of a parcel of circumstances that in SOME cases lead to eternal life, or at the very least impressive longevity. I will elaborate.... as for the science man, i do 100% understand and i am trying VERY VERY hard to learn the scientific methods. in time i intend to,,,, i oughtta be carefull what i say here! dont want to give TOO much away! with some training and the right environment i will push these theories to the outer limits, believe in me. there are so many things that are leading there, and uses for technologies that we havent yet been introduced to... patent pending is one guy who is developing a way of introducing fungal colinisation via chainsaw oils, i hope others will have input, push the limits of all our understandings.

There we go! its a bit more involved than that but yes in essence, but also suggesting that some obserations may well lead to techniques that will enable us to assist some of our most treasured pollards into imortality. and not just rot, but form genetics thats where i want to push it

erm, can I please just point out that shigo's research was based in the U>S>A, what would he see of pollarding? not a great deal of old polalrds in the states my friends! no disrespect to Shigo, another of my heros, but he did lead the arb world down a route of fear for the Demons of D, when in fact, that is old hat.

Forget about the birch seedling growing out of the decay pocket (another form of evidance for duration, time of failure) do you mean the sprout of new growth ON the trunk, where once there would have been no room nor more importantly light to allow this. What some see as "destruction" i see Re-trenchment assitance by an "invading, other view" colonisation of a fungi. A tree has the capacity for eternal life, but ONLY when certain fungi "assist" most people would fear re pollard operations on a tree of this age and stature, but observation in the real world tells us that even a tree of this age and physiological dysfuntion can and will retrench regenerate and promote growth where once it was unable. i am not suggesting we go and take the other main limbs off! before anyone gets in a big state! what i am trying to lead to is an appreciation of what role fungi play in the "imortality" of the tree.

it is clear my message is not YET fully understood, but it will be and i hope youll all continue to comment and bear with me. I am trying to clarify each point raised but all the while also trying to show some observations that i think may prove helpfull in the understanding of the pollard. To keep things interesting i am going to insert another image for comment, i hope at least some will think about the evolution of the tree fungi relationship. Why have self destruct genetics in trees not been lost in evolution? doesnt the theory of evolution not eliminate such ridiculous defects, UNLESS they are adventigous!

that is a very nice intro and welcome to our little world, sounds to me youve been one of the "clan" for some time. i have no doubt of the therapeutic ability of woodland life. Spliting logs is my own personal favourite therapy!

really? so you dont think that butterflies evolved before mans intervention, and lived off the grasslands and meadows created by ancient and very destructive herbivores, animals that would have created (like elephants in the savana) large areas of progessive habitat? and then we came along and repeated what was already a set of circumstances that benifitted plants and animals already well evolved to take advantage of the situation?

no threat, Micorrhizas most likely

wood blewitt is my first thoughts, stick them on WAB forum for clarification