treeseer

How does one find out--remove dead bark, inspect for mycelia.. If A.m., which treatments to specify?? Remove all dead and decayed tissue, rinse, dry, cauterize lesions, replace soil, invigorate roots?

Totally agree, especially "- If there are signs of hollowing, you don't need to know the cause to determine the (remaining) wood quality or strength and stability of the tree.", but isn't there some variation based on region and species to consider? Plus, the role of resonance/acoustic testing by sounding with a mallet should be part of the process. First tool out of my bag, after or during the first eyeballing.

Maybe some of my confusion is due to regional dialect, but... Isn't the root flare a natural structural formation of a maturing tree? Given individual tree variation, how do we know if the flare is abnormal? If the root flare looks abnormal to us, are there other possible causes for this, besides root degrading parasites? Thank you for any replies.

Same here; stiff brush in the shower gets a lot of that. Most trees I would rather barehand, in most weather. The closer the contact with the tree, the more communication I get about what treatment to give... Unless the trees are communicating sticky sap like some pines, or roughness on a cool day.

Thanks!

" to asses strength loss without strategy information is like having eggs without bacon!" not a bacon guy. I look fwd to more tomo experience asap... I should have said "wood loss" "Guy, some fungi/decay actually increases flexibility, what then?" Good question. depends on load, etc. "will you asses the strength loss without a decent prognosis in the longer term? " Another good question; of course prognosis leads to management options, so the better, the better. One plan is to re-tomo annually. I'll check back in after a revisit.

1. By using a microscope capable of determining whether the hyphae behind the melanine layer belong to an Armillaria species or that the black layer is of another (fungal : mostly ascomycete) origin. Thanks for the reminder--i'll excise and look closely. ELISA test may be useful--it's been familiar here 5+ years--but i will have a close look first. More flat black stuff observed today--not on paying job but in my own woods.

1. It's not evidence of the spreading of the decay, it's the spreading of the killing of cambium and shedding of bark by an unidentified parasite/pathogen followed by a superficial wood decayer that is assessed. We agree--admit it! A spreading saprophyte is evidence of dead tissue underneath. Identifying that pathogen would waste time--the tree is fecked. "Assumptions, speculations, jumping to conclusions without assessment of the types of wood rot and identification of the fungi ("It looks the same ... I don't know that, but I do know that all those fb's are not good for stability"), not much to base a valid diagnosis on." It might be fun, but client's money would be wasted on all that. On other trees, species ID is critical, NOT every tree. Give it a rest! IME, a valid and reliable tomograph reading can be done by someone who has personally (visually and by sounding) assessed the tree before tomographing it. It is desirable but not necessary--or always possible!-- to identify the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly,or to have experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species, or to have often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled. Periodic readings indicate decay progression, and contribute to competent assessments. Some decay fungi cannot be identified, some folks don't get a chance to do a lot of autopsies, so how can all that be *necessary* ?? Arboriculture works better with mycology, but it is not always impossible without mycological precision.

Agreeing with previous posts--yes it is best to contact neighbor and share results if not cost of risk assessment. HUGE growth of woundwood around the hole. This tissue can be twice as strong as regular wood. This does not look like a high risk based on pics so far. I am in north america, but we have many beeches. The most productive concern at present may be the state of the tree's roots. Pictures of the mulched expanse below the branches could help track down cause of thin crown.

referred to in some geneticist circles as a FLO, fungus-like-organism. I knwo what Rob is talking about; signs can resemble bacterial infections. Lesions can be traced, rinsed and cautrerized, to lessen inoculum. Soil can be replaced and rosaceous mulch applied to retard infection. Has another treatment program been suggested?

Gerrit, my respected colleague, one last time i'll answer. The lurkers are restless. 1. IME ? How much (supervised) training and experience in using a tomograph as a diagnostic instrument and reading the data do you personally have then ? Trained with fakopp, arbortom and picus. Used a fakopp for a few weeks on a couple dozen trees. Looking to rent the picus for a month here soon, so I have a better idea which to buy. not an expert, but familiar. 2. So anyone renting or buying a tomograph and reading the manual is qualified to do the job ? No, that is leaping to the wrong conclusion with the unkind and invalid assumption that i have inadequate experience, just because it does not match yours. Please be nice to us lower life forms. "Wouldn't it be better to leave this type of assessment to the experienced professionals, who also can integrate mycological expertise into their diagnosis ?" Yes, and it would also be better to have a chicken in every pot(look up Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression, on the brink of a repeat of which we all teeter), and an experienced mycologist/tomographer/uber-arborist in every town. Sad to say, I'd have to go 500+ miles to find one of the few individuals on this continent with more experience in this area than I with my paltryand struggling but still adequate skills. 3. What aspects of arboriculture work better with mycology, but are not impossible without mycological precision ? All of the assignments that do not require mycological precision, which is most of them. I am (and was, in print, in NA anyway?) the first to say that the more we know of fungal strategies the better. However all of this tight focus on tssm/tsse, which seems to have good contributions to make to arboriculture, cannot be applied to all cases as the primary approach. imho. To see the tree well, we have to see the fungal activity. but we shan't lose sight of the trees, and our assignments, by focusing too tightly on fungus, or soil conditions, or site conditions like exposure, or tree species, growth habits, etc., characteristics, or maintenance history, or management potential, or all the other factors that go into tree assessment. imho. "As Marco already said : "the piece of equipment is only as good as the Guy operating the equipment." And I would add, "The assessment is only as good as the objectivity of the assessor." The whole tree reaches to the sky and interacts with people, so, with no offense meant to hama or other mycophiles, it does not all fit in the lens of tssm/tsse. imho. I have more to learn in this area, but it does not look like the Holy Grail that will answer all tree questions. Encyclopedic recitations are impressive, but applicability to tree work seems limited. I'll keep posting pics here, but let's agree to disagree on which life form primarily drives the ecosystems--both arborist and forest ecologist may be wrong! Perhaps it is a gnome named Numnutz, or the Martians--there is much that you and i do not know! I won't bore the lurkers further by going through your gauntlets of insulting interrogatives on what appear to be tangential, or tenuously connected, topics any more. To serve my clients and make a living, I have to stay focused on results. it's been fun and all, but time is limited. Ta for now.

This fb almost rotted/eaten away. grifola? Across from cavity w orange chisel inserted. Tree has grown lots of lower branches since being exposed 17 years ago. Mulching crew evidently gets paid by volume.

Saw lesions on a red maple and suspected Phytophthora. then excavated dead tissue and saw smooth black area underneath the uppermost sign, unlike P. So is this the melanine plaque indicative of Armillaria? How to examine further to get a better idea? The flare is buried 9"+. Prescription is to take off a lot of the old mulch/dirt/roots now, and inoculate soil under dripline with it. more next fall. This is an understory tree so risk is very low. Cavity on opposite side. Constructive feedback welcome.

No offense meant, but this policy seems a tad extreme. "expects"?

Agree. **key point** imo

1. (Again) poorly documented and without valid assessment of the effects on the condition and stability of the trees, the type of woodrot and the body language of both the trees and the fungi. Inadequate so far, yes, that is why advanced assessment is specified. 2. And apart from the tree species specific Phellinus robustus and Daedalea quercina, one could add several other co-existing wood decaying parasitic and/or saprotrophic species to the list of macrofungi on older oaks. Well i'll look for all that, but strength loss is what matters, so advanced assessment is specified. Thanks for your kind words!

IME, a valid and reliable tomograph reading can be done by someone who has personally (visually and by sounding) assessed the tree before tomographing it. It is desirable but not necessary--or always possible!-- to identify the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly,or to have experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species, or to have often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled. Periodic readings indicate decay progression, and contribute to competent assessments. Some decay fungi cannot be identified, some folks don't often get a chance to do autopsies, so how can all that be *necessary* ?? Arboriculture works better with mycology, but it is not always impossible without mycological precision.

Sarcasm aside, 2. A very superficial outside in saprotrophic pioneer white rotter such as a Stereum species (© G.J. Keizer ?) indicating ... the spread of decay and the spreading towards a similar "hot spot" node on a branch ... destabilizing branches of a tree ? the suspected stereum would indicate that decay is spreading yes. "And how did you assess a recent pruining wound being "attacked" by the same fungus if you didn't identify any of the fungi in the first place ?" It looks the same. Precision is nice, but general accuracy often works. 3. What Polyporus species is parasitic and grows in/on Quercus phellos and with what effects ? I don't know that, but I do know that all those fb's are not good for stability. Precision is nice, but 1-7 met the assignment. In total, they point to interior decay and poor condition, beyond any mitigation. Removal should be strongly considered. IME, a valid and reliable tomograph reading can be done by someone who has personally (visually and by sounding) assessed the tree before tomographing it. It is desirable but not necessary--or always possible!-- to identify the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly,or to have experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species, or to have often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled. Periodic readings indicate decay progression, and contribute to competent assessments. Some decay fungi cannot be identified, some folks don't get a chance to do a lot of autopsies, so how can all that be *necessary* ?? Arboriculture works better with mycology, but it is not always impossible without mycological precision.

yes, yes, yes, and fairly good, with the limitations in mind, such as cracks. more experience with the fakopp to date. bring em on!

OK. not sure where the odds come from or whether they apply to other regions. The primary question is degree and progression of decay, and if a tool can measure this, assessment and monitoring is pretty straightforward. That said, I'll look more for those mentioned, fbs or no.

Where (U.S., Australia, New Zealand, Europe ?), on what species of Quercus and how old were the trees ? OLD Q PHELLOS MOSTLY, SE USA muggy here in summer. Any documentation on the assessment of the (tree species specific) effects on the condition and stability of each of these Quercus species ? Attacking strategies, softrot and/or white rot ? Body language of the trees, bark and cambium necrosis ? butt rot Co-existence with Fistulina hepatica and/or Laetiporus sulphureus ? seldom other fb's or other signs/symptoms visible. one rotter is enough!

so maybe a less snappy version will enliven it, or at least take it outside the personal realm. I know hama, I really do! A closer look at the OP is all we need; even a 164 kb image can say a lot, and show the tree is, in UK parlance, "fecked". This Quercus phellos measured 113 inches in circumference at breast height and is a significant risk. Visual inspection of the lower trunk on the sidewalk side of the tree revealed a large, relatively fresh, vertical crack. At the top of this crack is a black growth resembling a fungal fruiting body. Coupled with the hollow soundings produced 360° by our rubber hammer, this indicates the progression of interior decay towards the bark. The crack suggests the tree is not walling off decay well and that there may not be enough of a reliable shell of wood near the crack to support the tree in an extreme weather event. We also noted fungal infections adjacent to pruning wounds in the canopy, which also indicates the spread of decay. The pruning wounds do not appear to be closing. Seven reasons we needed not climb the tree to inspect this area, left to right: 1. Large branch over the road, visibly decayed back to a node near the trunk. This area has a concentration of chemicals and structures that make it a branch/bud protection zone. It is also “hot spot”, in the Zone of Rapid Taper. Considering the Town’s short pruning cycle of 1-2 years, the size of the branch and the extent of decay are significant. 2. Apparent saprophytic fungus (which grows on tissue that is already dead), perhaps Stereum sp., is spreading towards a similar “hot spot” node on a branch facing west. 3. Recent pruning wound being attacked by this fungus. 4. Nearby pruning wound not closing. 5. The most recent pruning wound is also not closing. 6. Apparent parasitic fungus (which grows in living wood), resembling Polyporus, grows on included bark between this wound and the largest branch/leader in this midstem area 7. Upward-pointing structure above the fungus advancing up this leader might be loose bark affected by decay. Fig 1.1 Roots girdling and scarred. East view. Fig. 1-2 Girdling root disrupts circulation. north view If only one or two of these signs of disease or symptoms of tree response to disease were evident, closer inspection and precise identification of pathogens may be warranted. In total, they point to interior decay and poor condition, beyond any mitigation. Removal should be strongly considered. The sooner the tree is removed, the quicker a replacement tree can be installed and begin establishing its roots. MANAGEMENT OPTIONS The other trees with visible fungal fruiting bodies or audible hollows noted should be assessed with a noninvasive decay-detection instrument such as a tomograph. The extent of decay will indicate potential mitigation, such as how much and where they should be pruned, for health and safety. Vines and other growth should be kept clear of the stems of all the trees to permit inspection. Mulch should be spread near—not on—the trunks, to prevent further damage by and to lawnmowers. The primary problem these trees have is root damage during work on curbs and sidewalks. The upcoming final report will include appendices describing ways of maintaining safe walking surfaces and adequate water direction while minimizing impacts to the trees. For now we recommend the City cease any further pavement works adjacent to significant trees until City staff, including Streets and Grounds, is familiar with all reasonable options for these works, and with relevant industry standards and references. This concludes our preliminary report. We can clarify any portions of it upon request.

"And it wasn't the first time." What goes around comes around. I'm up for a truce, myself, but as long as we have opposite views on whether trees or fungi play a leading role in ecosystems, some conflict is unavoidable. No blood lost; not a big deal

We agree. Of course. Probe did not reach far, but tomography has been recommended for all trees with Ganoderma and Inonotus fb's, and with cavities discerned by sounding. I've seen it in hundreds, but was not keeping count. It is a bad actor.

On Q phellos. probably more common here in the warmer se usa. Interesting that you consider it overrated; here it gets a lot of respect, but questionable how fast or how inevitably it spreads. first pic new conk next to old. 2nd pic new conk near recent paving damage.