treeseer

So much for your promises of not replying to my posts! I'm married to a clinical psychologist/psychotherapist who is a PhD neuropsychologist and head of a federal research review committee. I went on extended vacation in part to avoid getting routinely "shrunk" (sorry honey) but now I'm pursued by a rogue low land shrink on a tree guy chat forum! "Guy, Also being a clinical psychologist/psychotherapist and an expert on human behaviour or communication, why am I not surprised ? Maybe a bit of introspection and self reflection could do wonders for you and for the good causes you're fighting for." 1. How else do you think I came to the conclusion that those behaviours were not productive, a fortune cookie? 2. If you are such an expert on communication, perhaps you could manage to reply even when your ego is jiggled by alternative viewpoints. Consider that I'm comfortable expressing my personal growth and *errors* and stumbling evolution, in response to an innocuous but personal jab. How do you handle the heat, doc? Toss a few broad insults and slither out of the kitchen to the study, for brandy and cigars? (hama you fink did you lead this guy of all people to a pruning thread? ) Speaking of expertise on human communication, we could talk about how many peer reviews we have each sustained....but then I would have to do what Tony hinted and check your cv, which would no doubt render me prostrate, and risk blowing out my prostate. Worse yet, that might lead to an extended discourse on the precise meaning of "peer", which is the wrong topic to raise with a UK group. Moving on... 3. Maybe if you gazed at your own navel a while you would arrive at your own epiphanies, and answers to: why is narrowminded arrogance such a dutch trait? why do you find conversation with an american arborist so difficult? Perhaps a tree guy dropped a branch in your sandbox way back when. Someday you may see that forum chat like all social intercourse (and that other kind too) is meant to be Dutch Treat; everybody buys their own, and owns their own. Just funnin' with ya Gerrit, take it easy. I'm off to New Zealand, and will not interpose in the euc canker thread anymore. Your most qualified views on fungal disease from the fungal viewpoint will be safe from my mycologically lacking arboinput. Guten Nacht, Mein Freund gee i hope no one else is listening

Aye aye Cap'n Tony; all's cool over here. and that's small "t" and no Mr., keeping some fitting humility. "firstly, looking at the issues from a fungal perspective is vital, we have damage, and hence wood exposed and prone to decay agents. All true, but keeping the arb perspective as well is also vital, considering the assignment. "The armillaria sign is ...the melanine plating or plaques, though maybe more likely Kretschmaria. I do see black, which may be a layer of melanine covering an aggressive decay pathogen that will inexorably destabilize the tree. But that seems uncertain at this stage of diagnosis. A black layer may also have several other causes. "the crustose term is valid, maybe should have said resipinate, for your discerning tastes? and it is a fungi, mark my words. I totally agree it is at least one fungus, and the crustose term is descriptive so it works for me; just unfamiliar in the fungal context to my NA vocabulary. "what would have helped was a well focused image with a small aperture offering good depth of field but we have what we have. we can still hope for more, if the original poster has not thrown his computer into the deep freeze and run away screaming, vowing never to return. "from the long term perspective yes this woundwood is strong, so strong in fact that a wound wood occlusion from a large euc was found in the Australian outback and was thought to be a boats frame, it had survived the fire that had burnt the rest of the tree away! Yes, trees make amazing and longterm responses. "so yes a tree can stand like this as long as it isnt colonised by an aggressive parasitic fungi such as Kretschmaria (plaques evident) Even if the black color is what you suspect (see above), is that proof of overwhelming colonisation, or mere presence of a fungal pest? K deusta can be lethargic and compartmentalised indefinitely, ime in NA. "much of the issues facing trees are fungal related, a very vast majority (following major stress and or injury) "Vast" is not vast enough, without a superlative adverb? Please allow me to suggest a whole host of other issues that wounded trees face in the context of this thread, *tree* risk assessment. Load, vitality, owner's risk tolerance, assessor's knowledge of mitigation options among them. "so to not look at it from a fungal perspective in the FIRST instance is pretty naive. True, in the context of the assignment, arboriculture. Studying fungal strategies of wood decay in trees is critically important, but to forget that it takes two to tango might be not only naive but neglectful. The tree is always involved in these trials of strength, as I naively noted nearly 10 years ago in the ISA journal: FUNGAL STRATEGIES OF WOOD DECAY IN TREES In 1878, in Germany, as I learned in Forestry 101, the modern science of tree care was born with the publication of Robert Hartig’s text on tree disease. This landmark book described the parasitic mode of life of Armillaria on Scots pine and documented the breakdown of cell walls by Phellinus pini. In 1863, Schacht had described the invasion of cell walls by fungal hyphae. Lacking the tools necessary for a closer analysis, but building on Schacht’s work, Hartig postulated that enzymes secreted by fungal hyphae dissolved lignin and caused secondary cell walls to collapse. As a result, wood would become worthless, and trees would fall down. In 2000, in Germany, the science of tree care took a great leap forward. Building on the work of Hartig, Shigo and many others, Francis W.F.M.R. Schwarze, Julia Engels and Claus Mattheck published Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees. Now available worldwide, and made readily accessible to English speakers thanks to the superlative translation work of William Linnard, this book shows the reader an entirely new way of looking at decay in trees. By understanding fungus-tree interaction more completely, the tree manager can make decisions about how to handle infected trees with more certainty. More certainty is certainly needed today. Many authorities tell tree managers that infections by Armillaria, Ganoderma, Inonotus and other fungi ((such as K deusta-2011) are considered sufficient cause for immediate removal of the tree for fear of failure. However, based on over ten years of research, Schwarze tells us “…the mere occurrence of a fungus fruit body on a tree does not indicate the extent of the decay…Degradation processes, host differences and environmental conditions are too diverse…decays often affect only a small amount of wood in the tree, so that stability and safety are not impaired.” The book begins with a review of wood anatomy, focusing on the layered structure of the cell wall. Readers of Mattheck’s earlier work will recognize the hedgehog demonstrating the mechanical stresses within the tree. By listening to this “body language” spoken inside the tree, the diagnostician may “hear” the decay spread--and sometimes stop. With magnification up to 1000x, the reader is able to see clearly the action of the fungus in the cells, and the reaction of the trees to the attack. Fungal pathology is reviewed next; the brown, white and soft rots. Much advanced information on soft rots, which were first described by Schacht in 1863, is presented. For instance, research by Schwarze et al prove what Sinclair, Lyon and Johnson saw indications of in 1987—that Hypoxylon deustum (a.k.a. Ustulina deusta) causes a soft rot in the sapwood of various trees. This is just one example of a pathogen shifting strategies, from saprophyte to parasite, or from enzyme-secreting to hyphae-growing that the authors note, especially on moisture-stressed trees. Chapter Three, the heart of the book, is devoted to Fungus-Host Combinations. For a diagnostician of limited understanding, such as the reviewer, the illustrations here tell the tale of fungal pathology better than a thousand words. First, electron micrographs take the eye into intercellular and intracellular space, where the chemical battles take place. Then, three-dimensional anatomic drawings paint a distinct picture of the disease and the defense. Finally photographs, of standing trees and cross-sections, show what we all see in real life when a rotting tree is cut down and cut up. By pulling the eye and the mind from the inside of the tree to the outside and back again, the book allows the reader to exhaustively examine what takes place when fungus and tree combine. Still, as Schwarze says, “it requires an effort to understand these…’trials of strength’…the only sensible approach to predicting the future expansion of a decay…” Or termination of a decay process; for he and others have observed, “many trees, old and young, in which a decay has been successfully compartmentalized”. The authors note why “stress treatment” fertilization of struggling trees often backfires—decay fungi thrive on excess nitrogen. Chapter 4 begins with the compartmentalization model, and verifies that theory with microscopic assessment. Since most fungi which endanger trees’ stability work from the inside out, the ways that trees resist that outward spread are reviewed at some length. Xylem rays can be the trees’ Achilles Heels, the pathogens’ paths of least resistance. Similarly, xylem cracks produced by rapid drying after removal of a branch are “motorways” for infection, so the authors suggest that “the use of wound sealants could be quite successful against wound parasites. However there is still a great need for research here.” When large branches must be removed, experimenting with sealants seems preferable to opening the heartwood to decay. Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program to resist decay and retain and increase tree value.

Hardcore ANSI A300 man, true. Those standards allow for habitat pruning, and will probably include more in the next revision. Hardcore tree man, is the goal anyway. Complex relations with ISA; somewhere between blind allegiance and throwing hand grenades. both approaches tried and found wanting. :lol: To the considerable extent that ISA advances understanding of tree care, entirely supportive. Is there another organization that does as much for arborists or for arboriculture? If so, I'll join today. But enough derail. Here are shots from ArborCamp in Oz

Interesting look at the A ostoyae, thanks. 1. That's were we (again) disagree. There was a lack of scientific validity in the methods you used, as the data were gathered from a very limited and not adequately assessed and documented field "research" perspective, which may have been adequate for the tree owner, but does not qualify for being presented as a scientific contribution to the subject. Seemed like presenting an experience from another continent might be useful. Analysis of observations is a humble but valid scientific contribution. Nobody is perfect. 2. See : Forum Training & Education : Mycological Tree Assessment. I saw it. In the first case study, condemnation seemed hastily done, without adequate consideration of potential tree response to treatments. Pruning can rejuvenate, soil remediation can bring positive effects, etc. Other case studies and conclusions very interesting, some seem very instructive. Have you considered learning Arboricultural Tree Risk Management? 4. Just like a few other senior members of this forum, I have a "mission" to fullfill, so no teaching without preaching. As a member since 2007, I too have a mission--arboriculture--but I'd rather persuade through reason than through preaching. Different strokes for different folks. Preaching seems faith-based, and I prefer fact-based. I'm not thirsty for the fungus kool-aid, until nutritional analysis is made. 5. Let me remind you, that it was you, who "invaded" my thread challenging my research on the subject and uploaded an article from 2004, which made me assume, that you wanted your article and claims reviewed from my mycological and forest ecological perspective and by my scientific standards. No invasion or even challenges; I just presented a North American experience. And I did not see a copyright on the thread. I did not ask for it to be reviewed through such a limited perspective, but I respect and consider your views. If in the future I write something with a mycological aspect, I would be glad to forward it to you for review. "And concerning your next post on the "baby tree". By what method did you asess the constituents of the "frothy flux" " Analyzing information: report of smell, sunken black blotches around the lesions, and presence of insects. Looks more bacterial than fungal. "and exclude Phytophtora ramorum (SOD)" Never having smelled or heard reports of skunky beer smell from Phytophthora "or Acute Oak Death being responsible for the ooze ?" Not familiar with AOD in North America, and i hope to never be. Thank you for your frank responses; no sense beating around the bush. Keep them coming!

From June's Arborist News: "Intentional wounding ...At Fort Bragg, NC, US, longleaf pine are drilled with 5 cm (2”) bits to favor the rare red-cockaded woodpecker. In Sweden and England, hardwood branches are torn and blasted and sliced and diced, with branch ends shaped like little crowns. The objective behind these “coronet cuts” is to invite highly specialized beetles and fungi to colonize the exposed xylem. When tree health and safety are not the primary objectives, arboriculture gives way to vegetation management. While it may be helpful to look at trees as part of larger systems, favoring other species is very different from tree-centered arboriculture." If the defined objective is habitat for a defined orgaism(s) of imprtance, it makes sense. If not, not. "Eco-arb" is vegetation management in green clothing. At Arborcamp in Australia we saw some good examples of making thumb-sized slits for bats. Cool stuff imo. Only if the habitat is for special species do I intentionally wound a tree. Otherwise it just seems like mutilation is now a fad.

1. What type of mycorrhizae, ecto- or endo ? How will you determine the presence of either of them, and more specifically of the first type, if no FB's of symbiotic macrofungi are above ground ? I already recommended going below ground to gather evidence. Speaking of hearing aids... "How will you interpret their presence (or absence) if they are fruiting above ground ? And how do you know, that this Eucalypt species is associated with endo- or ectomycorrhizal micro- or macrofungi ?" If it seemed relevant, I would research it. If it seemed highly relevant, I would consult an expert. At this point, it does not seem relevant, but my mind is open to change. Is yours? 2. Maybe rhizomorphs or plaques, as Tony already implied ? What *sign* is there? (It seems a powerful hearing aid is needed). Implications and maybes are not scientific evidence. Jumping to conclusions is not good diagnostic or scientific process. 3. Indeed, "from this severely limited mycological view", so why "contribute" with all this utter nonsense to the subject at hand. Because the original poster said s/he imagined they'd cut it down due to target, and then examine the corpse. This is the most primitive form of tree risk management: "Defect" + Target = Removal. The "defect" is not assessed--it may well be negligible--so the diagnosis has barely begun. What seems utterly nonsensical is the peremptory interposition of a constraining mycological focus on what is an arboricultural question. 4. You could have saved yourself from a lot of work by simply confining to this from the thread you started yourself. You will contribute useful input when a closeup is furnished of the exczema/"crustose" material that has the original poster ready to wield the chainsaw. You could also hold off on the insults, sir. Try considering the subject at hand, arboriculture, from a more objective, scientific perspective. Confinement to the fungal perspective seems like a severe limitation.

Considering the large amount of woundwood on both sides and the 2mm depth of palpable decay, the tree appears, based on evidence so far, to be possibly stronger than an undamaged tree of the same species and size. Woundwood has been shown--by formal research--to be stronger than normal wood, and formal research is one of many types of science worth our attention. A tomograph may confirm the absence of interior strength loss, but trees stand more on their exterior buttresses than interior heartwood. The ISA BMP on risk (in its 3rd draft and ready to come out later this year) would point to this adaptive growth as a strength gain factor. Target is one of several risk factors, and removal is just one mitigation option. Knowing nothing of the crown, it's hard to say if or how much pruning could or should be done to reduce risk. The first place is to look to the earth. EXcavate the soil around the area, EXpose the edges of the wound, EXamine the material for fungal structures and other clues. EXcise decayed material for assessment, EXtract all the information available. This is the 5-EX protocol, a preliminary arboricultural view of fungal risk assessment. Looking wider, to the foliage in the periphery of the crown and also to mycorrhizae in the periphery of the root system could also yield important information. What sign is there of armillaria? "Crustose" refers to lichen, as used in the USA. The white growth does not resemble a decay fungus that I have seen, but I have never been to England. It appears more like eczema than a wood rotter, from this severely limited mycological view. In searching for distantly recalled terms, I cast my net wide and found "Aphyllophorales From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Aphyllophorales is an obsolete order of fungi in the Basidiomycota. The order is entirely artificial, bringing together a miscellany of species now grouped among the clavarioid fungi, corticioid fungi, cyphelloid fungi, hydnoid fungi, and poroid fungi.[1] [edit] History The order Aphyllophorales was first proposed in 1922 by Carleton Rea.[2] "A-phyllo-phora" means "not bearing gills", distinguishing the Aphyllophorales from the gilled agarics (mushrooms and toadstools) that Rea placed in the Agaricales. The Gasteromycetales and Heterobasidiomycetes were also excluded. As originally conceived, the Aphyllophorales contained the families Clavariaceae, Cyphellaceae, Fistulinaceae, Hydnaceae, Meruliaceae, Polyporaceae, Polystictaceae, and Thelephoraceae.[2] Most of these families are still current, albeit in an amended form.[3] Though many attempts were made to create a more natural classification of the Basidiomycota, the Aphyllophorales continued to be used (at least by some) until entirely superseded in the 1990s by classification systems based on cladistic analysis of DNA sequences.[1]"

Is postage and time to America or Australia prohibitive? If so, perhaps a club on each continent may be the way to go. I've got a wall full I would be glad to send out, if I know they are coming back. That has been an issue in the past, mainly due to mutual forgetfulness, so the forum-as-list concept holds great merit.

"make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.)" We've excised Gerrit's constructive advice and will follow it. We may have a microtome available, and have ordered the proper stains. We know enough to look for septa and the wall thickness of hyphae. I only have 2 pathology courses and some related graduate work (one peer-reviewed bit of a lit review attached from ~10 years ago), but i acknowledge that I am nearly as incompetent at this as has been suggested. If a skilled mycologist with macrofungal experience was in Queensland, I would be knocking at her door and offering my firstborn to take this over; but then at 22 he is quite a handful! and may not go along with the deal. I still hope for other constructive advice from other contributors, as I know there are many experienced in this field who might be willing to guide our efforts. The teleomorph that we all thought was K deusta was seemingly spent and yielded no visible spores, and K deusta seems to be secondary, so I shan't embarass myself any more by posting that trash. We will post our best efforts, in hopes of cooperation. Thanks to all.

Great advice on using pole tools and working the outer edge. Thinning cuts along with reduction cuts can be part of a good risk management program, IF properly specified and carried out. I often specify 9%, and below 5 or 10 cm, focusing on the outer 25% of the crown.

Guy, You really got me confused now, first you said you are based in SE USA (North Carolina), from which country your posts and article on "frotty flux" came, and now you present yourself as being part of a field reseach team on sudden eucalypt or gum death in Australia. Gerrit, I did not think you would be so easily confused. As you no doubt leave your home country from time to time, I am not confined to mine. 1. Could well be, but as said before, without microscopical analysis nothing is certain. We seek to approach certainty, or at least do away with some of our ignorance, through microscopical analysis. 2. Wouldn't it be better if microscopical analysis of the material was done by a local professional mycologist, who has the necessary equipment and chemicals, knows how to make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.) ? Of course; it would also be better to have world peace, and a chicken in every pot. We approached the Queensland Mycological Society, who collectively admitted no expertise with wood decay fungi. The only member with some experience in this area moved to NZ. 3. You cannot release spores from sterile, i.e. non-reproductive hyphae unless it's mycelium of a microfungus a-sexually producing (conidio)spores. That is what I was hoping for. btw this advice was delivered by what i was told was the best private lab in Queensland, which we are striving to engage in this effort, in lieu of government facilities. 4. As you will have concluded after my above remarks, this type of microscopic imaging has no diagnostic value. As you may have guessed from previous conversations, I believe that jumping to conclusions is not only unscientific. but it short-circuits the diagnostic process. I acknowledge the severe limitations of our expertise, and am peddling our pictures elsewhere, as we seek to improve our technique. If any other forum users are able to consider these images with a spirit of cooperation, we would also welcome constructive feedback. Brisbane is not Amsterdam; we are honestly trying to do the best with what we have, and we really could use some help here! The disease is invading the forest and the city, and the trees have no apparent defense to its spread.

these 5 are of degraded wood fibers, with some fascinating structures attached, the identity or diagnostic value of which I shan't even guess at. But still hope for.

these 5 are of degraded wood fibers, with some fascinating structures attached, the identity or value of which I shan't even guess at.

Photo 2/3 : without microscopical analysis this looks like mycelial/hyphal sheets of a not yet fruiting macrofungus. Gerrit, attached are microscopic images of those sheets, seen on post 17. The microscope was much better than the operators, sad to say; the images are of sliced sections. We were later advised to try steaming these sheets to see if we could get spores to release. Other ideas on preparation? Staining? agitating in solution? The first and 4th are lower res--40x? The 2nd and 3rd higher--200x? If these images may have diagnostic value please let us know what you see. Others of course please pitch in as your expertise allows. I apologize for the reference to these as fb's before any f was seen. (i do hope this investigation bears some f before we are done ) Images courtesy Mr. Steven Richards of ArborLogic.

Thank you for the detailed reply. We're going back out tomorrow in search of orange fb's. In the meantime here are some images of orangeish structures that do not look like fb's I am familiar with, but different and i hope worth posting anyway. After attending a meeting of the Queensland Mycological Society this evening, the dearth of local inventories and resources of wood decay fungi here are more clear than ever in this young civilization. We will be able to examine samples under a microscope tomorrow, and will look for the structures that you mention.

Again, startling and dramatic images--thanks! Given lack of past history (assuming no one here is that old), I'm wondering how it was determined that it was the fungal mycelia that split the tree in half. Could the primary damage and splitting been done by lightning, or another tree falling on it, and the fungi moved in to mop up? A German mycologist showed us some research last month that seemed to conclude convincingly that G. lispiense was very weak; largely saprophytic, compared to G adspersum or applanatum. I believe the host involved in the study was Fagus, too. No denying that fungus plays a large role here, but the look of the standing dead tree seems to indicate a violent past.

Excellent images; thanks! That's very extreme and late to start a pollard; we would call it topping over here in the usa. Would you say the pathogen is primary or secondary, and did it come up from the soil, or via airborne spores?

further indication that in north america at least frothy flux is apparently not always a wood decay pathogen phenomenon. here seen on a baby tree: http://www.arboristsite.com/homeowner-helper-forum/177713.htm#post3087436

All good, Gerritt, " No offence meant, just correcting invalid methods of assessment or (field) "research" and jumping to conclusions based on non-scientific data derived from a limited perspective, that's all, so also an even shorter reply in return. Some offence still taken frankly--my objective was managing the trees for the clients. methods valid for that purpose imho. Data very scientific and valid for that limited purpose--i shan't be sending this in for a journal publication. Research and science are not synonymous. 1. Wrong conclusion. As a forest ecologist and mycologist, my focus is on the total tree species specific ecosystem and its soil food web, including relevant parasitic, saprotrophic and symbiotic macrofungi and other organisms, not on the trees, nor on the fungi alone, but on all of the contextual or "holistic" (Gestalt) (eco)system aspects (habitat, niche), without which IMO a complete and valid analysis of the health or condition of a tree can not be made. Was my work complete in the ecological context, no. Valid, yes indeed. I need not assess entire soil food web or continental or global or galactic context to draw a valid conclusion, do I? . 2. You can see and identify 1-2 µm wide hyphae with a hand lense ? No I did not see the inner hyphal strand and I do thank you very much for the clue to look for it. Next time i will collect and look under microscope. 3. Correct, you said Phytophthora (in general), which includes P. ramorum. thank you for the retraction. "So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that I'd like to think we went beyond that. Our differing experiences are primarily regional, which cannot be changed, but can be instructive. But our approaches and biases can be adjusted, or why even bother logging into a site like this? Teaching may take place, which is very useful, but preaching is best saved for other venues. So I'll avoid seizing this bully pulpit to preach arboriculture to mycologists and ecologists, and hope the favor will be returned. The truth about the frothy flux phenomenon lies somewhere between or beyond our differing continental views. There's always more to know.

Gerritt, this is far off the radar now but a quick reply: 1. Tree species specific ecosystems with tree species specific soil food webs including tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts are at the core of the life cycle dependend health and condition of trees such as Quercus species. Besides, within the same tree genus, there can be significant differences in tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts and saprotrophic and/or parasitic macrofungi, which is demonstrated by Q. rubra, which has been introduced in The Netherlands 100+ years ago, only being capable of associating with less then 70 % of the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with Q. robur, not being colonized by a parasite such as Fistulina hepatica and being much faster colonized by Laetiporus sulphureus or Daedalea quercina with far more short term detrimental effects. can't follow a 10-line sentence too well, but this points up continental differences; D quercina very weak here. in general as an arborist my focus is the tree and I see yours is on the fungus and I am keen to learn more about that, to balance out my bias, which seems like a good idea. 2. Without microscopical identification and assessment of the pathogens, the validity of your "facts driven" field research theory is rather poor, as research done without proper assessment, identification and monitoring of generalistic and/or tree species specific ectomycorrizal macrofungi and their presence or absence in specific periods of the life cycles of the trees is speculative and not much contributing to our understanding of the tree species specific ecosystems and the interactions of their pathogens and symbionts and/or the agents facilitating the recovery of infected tree species. reminder; as an arborist i am treating trees. protocol is successful and has no pretension of it being based on mycological research. nor need it be: my clients care about what works on their trees, and so do i. 3. Quote : "Fertilization of diseased plants has recently become highly controversial. Some large declining oaks that received a "stress treatment" of high-nitrogen fertilizer into the soil looked great after a year afterward. Soon after they succumbed to Phytophthora and other decay organisms that thrive on excess nitrogen" (page 36). Yes that was the reason that N not applied; we seem to be talking past each other here... 4. Which facts do not fit what theory or hypothesis by whom and as an outcome of what scientific research ? facts can be confirmed in practice. All research may be science but not all science is research. "And Phytophthora ramorum not being "virulent" ? please sir i did not say ramorum and i did say "in se usa"; we cannot communicate if we do not maintain some accuracy in quotations. 5. Phytophthora is an Oömycete. ok 6. Did you microscopically check the presence of whitish or hyaline hyphae inside the black brittle structures you claim to be rhizomorphs ? no but i did use a hand lens, and my fingers to snap them. my methods are not sophisticated now, but they were downright primitive in 2004. 7. In biology, nothing ever is the "purpose", calling "behavior" of trees and other living organisms besides human beings purposeful and intentional is a form of anthropomorphism. hence my gentle correction of your ""tapping" the energy rich ooze to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound" statement, which seemed literally teleological/anthropomorphic in ascribing a purpose. That seemed to zip right by your notice, but it's not fair for me to critique english usage with a dutchman; my apologies. Soil microflora are very important to trees yes but they are not all there is to consider, and lectures on same or biology in general do not always fit the topic. As our experiences and observations are on separate continents and species they may both be right so let's leave it at that.

Well this is refreshing--i first came to internet chat forums to learn about fungi and it has taken 6 years to get a detailed reply! Though i am 12 time zones from home and library i'll reply as possible: " the readers of Tree Care Industry (September 2004) will be primarely based in the USA, so it will not have been noticed by arborists, mycologists, forest ecologists and phytopathologists from European countries." fair enough, though the cornell u text may have been seen over the pond. "Then there is the fact, that the field research is primarely based on observations on Quercus species, such Q. alba, Q. phellos, Q. stellata or Q. montana, with tree species specific ecosystems, life cycles and soil food webs, including ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, European researchers are not familiar with." true enough, though they are still Quercus, in similar landscapes and at similar latitudes. Mycorrhizae may be important but whether they are a determining factor in all pathology is unclear to me. "Concerning your article, I have the following questions : - By what method was the presence of soil bacteria and other soil organisms assessed and by what method was the presence of fungal pathogens, such as Phytophthora species and yet unknow pathogens causing Acute Oak Death identified and excluded ?" No lab assessment done by this humble arborist. I replied on the reference which I consider the best in north america. The fact is in the 100+ infections i have managed there is no wood decay associated with frothy flux (Sinclair/Lyons termed it this in the edition that came out after the article was written, hence my 2004 struggle for the appropriate terminology) "- Were the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with the life cycles of the trees identified and monitored ? In the course of treatment we add air and OM to the soil to foster these, and observe growth aka informal monitoring, but no names are assigned; beyond my expertise. Clients unlikely to pay for same unless benefits clearly worth the cost. so far the trees recover without such analysis. - Was taken into account, that the high-nitrogen fertilization ???The lawns these trees grow in are seldom fertilized, and many infected trees are in unferitlized natural areas, so I am not sure what you refer to. At UNC campus they may broadcast some N, and i do agree trees would be more resistant if mulched, but N is not a factor in many cases. killed the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts first, which was detrimental to the nutrients and water supply of the tree and left the root system unprotected for invasions of parasites such as Armillaria and soil pathogens, after which Phytophthora "thrived" ? sorry but the facts do not fit this theory; i'm trained to let facts drive theory. Also, Phytophthora in the se usa is not virulent but often held in check by drying out the lesions and soil replacement. Armillaria when found can also be controlled in the same manner, in my limited experience and by reading accounts of other arborists. "My experiences with "frothy flux" and the association with rhizomorphs, plaques and/or mycelia of necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species, which on oak mostly is A. ostoyae, on 150+ Q. robur and 50+ Q. rubra are quite different from yours. To summarize, my research over a period of 15 years has shown, that the "frothy flux" associated with and IMO triggered by the rhizomorphs or plaques of parasitic Armillaria species blocking the floeem and xyleem transport, can at first locally hinder the formation of mycelia, rhizomorphs or plaques, but eventually "eases the way" by providing a pathway or stepping stone for further development of rhizomorphs and/or plaques, which are well protected against acids and aggressive organisms by a layer of melanine. Wow! well what a difference an ocean makes--again, no wood decay associated; none detected by sounding or tomograph or outward signs or conks or response growth. Infections are treated by removing dead tissue, rinsing with 10% bleach at first but now hydrogen peroxide. Persistent lesions are cauterized with a blowtorch. Closure rates approach 1"/year in most trees. sealants sometimes applied when a lot of xylem is exposed. Some final remarks to the text and photo's : - Yeasts are not bacteria, they are fungi (mostly ascomycetes). yes, misplaced hyphen caused confusion there. Last I heard, Phytphthora was termed a FLO fungus-like organism, too, but that may have changed, and does not seem so important anyway. "- The rhizoid structures in the fourth photo (page 36) don't look like rhizomorphs to me, but have the characteristics of secundary root formation "tapping" the energy rich ooze there are both rootlets and what strongly resemble armillaria rhizomporphs--black brittle structures with more perpendicular branching than roots typically do. that image taken near fresh and severe construction damage. insect organisms tap that ooze routinely--seldom is adventitious rooting evident near frothy flux ime. image in pdf is poor--more easily seen in hard copy. "to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound, a phenomenon I have often assessed and documented (with photo's) in trees attacked by (rhizomorphs of) Armillaria. yes adventitious rooting not uncommon around wounds of all origins, or in any dark moist condition where composted OM is present. and i agree the result is faster closure, though it may be teleological to say that was the purpose. Thanks for the reply: I could learn a lot from European trees, and will next spring.

I wonder if the sour smelling foamy exudate is of a particular fungal origin. In the usa our disease text from cornell u calls it "frothy flux", and attributes it to a cocktail of soil organisms. In my own feeble but numerous--100+--investigations it has not been associated with wood decay, but is actually antagonistic to fungi. Attached is a somewhat dated account, to which I have received no contradictory evidence to change the basic conclusions or treatment protocol, though I always welcome correction. Updating it is on my to-do list next winter so I'm actively seeking observations of frothy flux to widen my awareness of it. Last month it was recorded in northern Ontario; alarming for a syndrome I previously considered to be a southern phenomenon. Ooze in the News small.pdf

re pics i uploaded fullsize and then noticed size limits and so resized them; wound up duping. re pathogen this seems related; yet another taxonomical name change it seems. CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australasian Plant Pathology

Dear Mycophiles, I recently have witnessed an alarming disease on eucs in australia. the text i was linked to points to Cryphonectria, perhaps gyrosa or cubensis. I am not a fungus nor a euc expert so I submit these for your review. The disease is eating through old woundwood and popping out in lesions 10m+ up the bole. Thanks for your thoughts on ID and potential treatment.

Yes i am in the SE US, North Carolina. yes it is quite rare; only 2 others report seeing it that I know. One shroom 2 years ago weighed in at 19 pounds--8.5 kg? Very distinctive sweet odor of the stringy rot. Those pics showed feeding by omnivore; probably raccoon. It's fruiting this year; will try for fresh pics tomorrow. Tree was tomographed this January; will repeat next Jan.