Orchard planning - variety advice?

[sandspider]

Hi all

 

Aiming to plant a small orchard this year. Maybe 20 trees. Site is in South Wales, on a sloping paddock, South East ish facing. There are various bigger trees around, so the orchard site may possibly get a bit of shade from time to time - hopefully not much if I can site it correctly.

 

I'd like a range of fruit throughout the year (rather than a glut at one time) and will include apples (eating, juice and cider), pears, and a walnut tree. Could also include cherry, crabapple, plums, damsons, quinces... All sorts of options and I'm open to suggestions.

I aim to plant medium dwarfing trees (up to ~3m tall let's say), at 2.5 - 3m spacing. I like tasty ancient apple varieties such as the Orleans reinette, but am not sure what other varieties to plant, nor am I clear on the pollination requirements of the various varieties - I'd like them to fruit without too much intervention on my part. I'd also like trees that don't require too much work - i.e. they're fairly hardy and will grow confortably with a bit of water in the dry periods and mulch once or twice a year.

 

Any suggestions of varieties would be appreciated. I'm already in touch with Andrew at the heritage fruit tree company, but any other suggestions as to sources would be great.

 

Thank you.

[agg221]

I can give you some ideas- I'll pull some info together and make a proper post tonight.

 

Alec

[sandspider]

Thanks Alec, that would be great.

 

I've done a fair bit of reading on the interwebs, and I'm getting overwhelmed by all the possible options!

[Ruskins Trees]

Two basic guidelines when selecting;

 

Plant only varieties you like eating

Make sure they x pollinate or self fertile

[slack ma girdle]

Speak to Paul Davies at Dolau hiron, he specializes in friut that grows well in Wales.

Dolau-hirion Fruit Trees

[agg221]

OK, proper post as promised.

 

Some background - I grew up on an old smallholding orchard which I still look after for Mum and a few years ago planted up something very similar to what you describe at our place - slightly larger as it's around 50 trees but the principle as the same.

 

You have specified tree size, which is a good start. You have defined maybe higher than wide, but actually you will want wider than high. Typically you would space at 4m (12') minimum for trees which are able to 'get on with it'. Size is governed by rootstock mostly, but also variety and soil. Any rootstock smaller than this is going to need permanent staking and full weed control. If it matters, this is also about the smallest which actually looks like trees.

 

Unless you are going to use a lot of herbicides, you will need to mow around trees. This is easier if you grow them on longer stems, ie half standards rather than dwarf bushes, although it is possible even with very low stem bushes. On the other hand, shorter trunks give shorter trees overall and can still be pruned to mow around with care. Regardless, you will need to maintain a weed free area around 4' across under each tree.

 

Selecting for the above size, you are looking at MM106 rootstocks for apples unless the soil is very poor in which case you need MM111, Quince A for pears and quinces (although there are some new pear stocks which may be better but the jury is still out), St. Julien for plums (although this is still a bit big, but Pixy is a bit small) and you are pretty much stuck with Colt for cherries. The other advantage of this set of rootstocks is that they are the most common which gives the best available range and the lower cost suppliers become an option.

 

You can manage sizes by pruning and training but also by variety selection and careful placement within the orchard, so for example my orchard has the cherries (I really like cherries so this is an indulgence to have so many), which really want to be on a wider spacing, next to the pears, which grow more upright so leave more space. I have also alternated the cherries within the row between small and large growing trees, to balance things up further.

 

Suppliers - Keepers Nursery has a staggering range. I was there yesterday for their open day which works on a 'walk around the 600 varieties and eat as many as you like' basis. Certainly the best way to try before you buy. Other suppliers to look at are R.V.Roger, Talaton Plants (who will help with suggestions if you want), or this lot http://www.applesandorchards.org.uk/images/Tree%20catalogue%202016-17.pdf if they have the varieties you want. I have ordered from all of them and had good quality trees at reasonable prices considering the complexity of what they do.

 

As has been said, growing what you like is the key. The challenge is finding out what you like when the varieties can be so difficult to sample. Keepers or Brogdale are the best options for sampling. The other factors are things which do well in your climate and which give you a good season. Important questions are things like 'what would you do with a tree-load of quinces?'

 

Starting with the simple ones. Cherries - these are not easy. The birds will eat them, the trees are big and the fruit will crack if it rains, so you end up having to put a net over them. The exception would be Morello for cooking which is hardy, self fertile and tolerant to everything, and the birds don't always bother to eat them (although the squirrels ate all mine this year, under the net!). It makes fantastic pie filling or jam and if you hang the fruit on the tree long enough they become quite nice raw.

 

Plums - what do you like? Raw or cooked, purple or green? Plums can flower early which is a problem for frosting the blossom, but there are options . They also have a short season, but I would want at least one tree. I wouldn't bother with a damson though - I would get them on their own roots and plant them in the hedgerow.

 

Apples and pears. These have more options for how long they keep. Generally, the longer keeping varieties are the later ones and they also have the better flavour. I am guessing that your area is wet, so disease resistance is probably more important than cold tolerance, especially to canker and scab. One reasonable approach is to reckon that varieties which pre-date the major availability of pesticides (approx. 1880) are likely to be less susceptible and those which come from a location are more likely to do well in the climate, although the latter is not always true - I live in Sturmer but Sturmer Pippin which comes from about half a mile up the road does much better in New Zealand! Don't write off modern varieties though - in amongst the commercial high yielding, flavourless offerings there are a handful of real gems which would warrant a place in amongst the heritage varieties on merit. Take Discovery for example, which genuinely does combine the best of its parents Worcester Pearmain and Beauty of Bath.

 

With 20 trees, I think I would end up with 1 Morello, 2 plums (one early season dessert, one late season dual purpose or cooking), 4 or 5 pears of which one would be a very late cooking variety, 12 or 13 apples of which 3 or 4 cooking, 3 or 4 cider and the remainder dessert.

 

Pears could include Beth, Concorde, Beurre Hardy and either Black Worcester or Catillac.

 

Cooking apples, I would avoid Bramley as it doesn't do well in wet climates and is prone to bitterpit. I would go for Monarch or Newton Wonder instead as both are much better suited, and also slightly sweeter so need less sugar. I would also go for Annie Elizabeth which keeps from September to April and the fruit stays firm when cooked so is good for slices on flans etc. If you want an early cooker then Grenadier is good - Lord Suffield is too prone to canker to do well.

For cider, I would go for bittersweet varieties to either use on their own or blend with the sharper, lower sugar juice from the other apples. Dabinett, Black Dabinett and Harry Masters' Jersey would be options.

For dessert apples, I would look at Discovery as the earliest. You really need to taste the others to see what you like but I am a convert to Norfolk Royal Russet, if you want something Cox-like then Jupiter is probably the most reliable and may even have more flavour. You could look at Duke of Devonshire and Tydeman's Late Orange (also Cox-like flavour) as late varieties. Cornish Aromatic may suit as it likes wet climates and Court Pendu Plat will take whatever you throw at it (and it tastes good). St Edmunds Pippin is a good mid-season option and Rosemary Russet a well flavoured late one (caught perfectly on timing this is absolutely excellent for flavour). Adams Pearmain and Honey Pippin also have really good flavour, the former also keeps well.

 

A few initial thoughts for you anyway.

 

Alec

Edited October 3, 2016 by agg221

[sandspider]

Thanks all, especially Alec!

 

If that's some initial thoughts I await the epic saga of a full answer!

 

Seriously, many thanks for taking the time to put that answer together. A lot of useful information there. I will quote your post and respond to relevant bits.

[sandspider]

Additions in bold.

 

OK, proper post as promised.

 

Some background - I grew up on an old smallholding orchard which I still look after for Mum and a few years ago planted up something very similar to what you describe at our place - slightly larger as it's around 50 trees but the principle as the same.

 

 

You have specified tree size, which is a good start. You have defined maybe higher than wide, but actually you will want wider than high. Typically you would space at 4m (12') minimum for trees which are able to 'get on with it'. Size is governed by rootstock mostly, but also variety and soil. Any rootstock smaller than this is going to need permanent staking and full weed control. If it matters, this is also about the smallest which actually looks like trees.

 

Unless you are going to use a lot of herbicides, you will need to mow around trees. This is easier if you grow them on longer stems, ie half standards rather than dwarf bushes, although it is possible even with very low stem bushes. On the other hand, shorter trunks give shorter trees overall and can still be pruned to mow around with care. Regardless, you will need to maintain a weed free area around 4' across under each tree.

 

This all makes sense. I don't want to mess around with staking etc. unless I need to, and I will need to mow or strim under the trees (around the mulch) - perhaps with a topper on a compact tractor if I can, though manoeuvrability might be an issue. Not going to use any herbicides if it can be avoided. 4m spacing sounds big to me, but I might be able to stretch to it - will have to think about total orchard area. Half standard rootstocks do sound like they'll be the right height, so if they need 4m spacing I will find a way.

 

Selecting for the above size, you are looking at MM106 rootstocks for apples unless the soil is very poor in which case you need MM111, Quince A for pears and quinces (although there are some new pear stocks which may be better but the jury is still out), St. Julien for plums (although this is still a bit big, but Pixy is a bit small) and you are pretty much stuck with Colt for cherries. The other advantage of this set of rootstocks is that they are the most common which gives the best available range and the lower cost suppliers become an option.

 

The soil I believe is good, and I will enrich with mulches anyway. A mixture of rotted wood / plant chip and manure is what I'm aiming for. Would be easier if i could use fresh chip, but I believe this can leach nitrogen from the soil until the chip rots down? Glad to hear low cost suppliers are an option as the budget might be tight!

 

You can manage sizes by pruning and training but also by variety selection and careful placement within the orchard, so for example my orchard has the cherries (I really like cherries so this is an indulgence to have so many), which really want to be on a wider spacing, next to the pears, which grow more upright so leave more space. I have also alternated the cherries within the row between small and large growing trees, to balance things up further.

 

[bI]

 

Suppliers - Keepers Nursery has a staggering range. I was there yesterday for their open day which works on a 'walk around the 600 varieties and eat as many as you like' basis. Certainly the best way to try before you buy. Other suppliers to look at are R.V.Roger, Talaton Plants (who will help with suggestions if you want), or this lot http://www.applesandorchards.org.uk/images/Tree%20catalogue%202016-17.pdf if they have the varieties you want. I have ordered from all of them and had good quality trees at reasonable prices considering the complexity of what they do.

 

As has been said, growing what you like is the key. The challenge is finding out what you like when the varieties can be so difficult to sample. Keepers or Brogdale are the best options for sampling. The other factors are things which do well in your climate and which give you a good season. Important questions are things like 'what would you do with a tree-load of quinces?'

 

Thanks for the supplier suggestions, and good point about checking which varieties we like. Most flavoursome apples I suppose, not the modern watery designed-to-travel-rather-than-taste-nice stuff. Wife likes pink ladies... (The apple variety, you perverts!) Will try and get to a supplier that offers sampling

 

Starting with the simple ones. Cherries - these are not easy. The birds will eat them, the trees are big and the fruit will crack if it rains, so you end up having to put a net over them. The exception would be Morello for cooking which is hardy, self fertile and tolerant to everything, and the birds don't always bother to eat them (although the squirrels ate all mine this year, under the net!). It makes fantastic pie filling or jam and if you hang the fruit on the tree long enough they become quite nice raw.

 

Hardy, self fertile and tolerant to everything sounds ideal. Sold! As long as they can become tasty when well ripened, as we do like uncooked cherries too

 

Plums - what do you like? Raw or cooked, purple or green? Plums can flower early which is a problem for frosting the blossom, but there are options . They also have a short season, but I would want at least one tree. I wouldn't bother with a damson though - I would get them on their own roots and plant them in the hedgerow.

 

Mainly raw and purple, but we do tend to make jam or crumbles from any gluts of our current plum tree - not sure what variety it is, but the plums are tasty but susceptible to rotting in bunches unless thinned. It's also too big a tree really, easily 4m high and wide and we can't reach a good proportion of the fruit

 

Apples and pears. These have more options for how long they keep. Generally, the longer keeping varieties are the later ones and they also have the better flavour. I am guessing that your area is wet, so disease resistance is probably more important than cold tolerance, especially to canker and scab. One reasonable approach is to reckon that varieties which pre-date the major availability of pesticides (approx. 1880) are likely to be less susceptible and those which come from a location are more likely to do well in the climate, although the latter is not always true - I live in Sturmer but Sturmer Pippin which comes from about half a mile up the road does much better in New Zealand! Don't write off modern varieties though - in amongst the commercial high yielding, flavourless offerings there are a handful of real gems which would warrant a place in amongst the heritage varieties on merit. Take Discovery for example, which genuinely does combine the best of its parents Worcester Pearmain and Beauty of Bath.

 

We've not actually moved in yet, so can't say for sure regards climate. I suspect, being Wales, it will be wet and not too cold. Discovery is duly noted, and I will try and find a few locally suited varieties that will give me a range of harvest times rather than a glut.

 

With 20 trees, I think I would end up with 1 Morello, 2 plums (one early season dessert, one late season dual purpose or cooking), 4 or 5 pears of which one would be a very late cooking variety, 12 or 13 apples of which 3 or 4 cooking, 3 or 4 cider and the remainder dessert.

 

Pears could include Beth, Concorde, Beurre Hardy and either Black Worcester or Catillac.

 

Cooking apples, I would avoid Bramley as it doesn't do well in wet climates and is prone to bitterpit. I would go for Monarch or Newton Wonder instead as both are much better suited, and also slightly sweeter so need less sugar. I would also go for Annie Elizabeth which keeps from September to April and the fruit stays firm when cooked so is good for slices on flans etc. If you want an early cooker then Grenadier is good - Lord Suffield is too prone to canker to do well.

For cider, I would go for bittersweet varieties to either use on their own or blend with the sharper, lower sugar juice from the other apples. Dabinett, Black Dabinett and Harry Masters' Jersey would be options.

For dessert apples, I would look at Discovery as the earliest. You really need to taste the others to see what you like but I am a convert to Norfolk Royal Russet, if you want something Cox-like then Jupiter is probably the most reliable and may even have more flavour. You could look at Duke of Devonshire and Tydeman's Late Orange (also Cox-like flavour) as late varieties. Cornish Aromatic may suit as it likes wet climates and Court Pendu Plat will take whatever you throw at it (and it tastes good). St Edmunds Pippin is a good mid-season option and Rosemary Russet a well flavoured late one (caught perfectly on timing this is absolutely excellent for flavour). Adams Pearmain and Honey Pippin also have really good flavour, the former also keeps well.

 

A few initial thoughts for you anyway.

 

Thank you again, that's extremely useful. Will look into the options you suggest above, and will try and taste these and more. Exciting times! I hope to plant this year, so had better think about ordering soon...

 

Alec

[agg221]

I forgot to comment on walnuts.

 

I suggest looking here:

 

catalog

 

They will ship to the UK.

 

You might want to look at the variety Chiara.

 

On plums - purple and raw, try Angelina Burdett and Kirke's Blue.

 

Alec

[wrsni]

if you want something Cox-like then Jupiter is probably the most reliable and may even have more flavour.

 

Wonder what your thoughts are on the Red Pippin or Fiesta as I think it's now more commonly known!

 

I'm a big fan of Cox to eat but was gutted to find that it's one of the most difficult apples to grow so I planted a Fiesta in preference last winter. It's done so well this year that it'll need a bit of trimming and I'm tempted to try a few grafts on to young crab apple next spring/late winter.

 

Certainly will have a look at the Jupiter now as well.