Whats a load?

[Logsnstuff]

I strongly disagree.

 

£120 for 250-300 kg (which is what a cubic metre is) of dry timber is ridiculous. It's more expensive (per solid cubic metre) than pressure treated sawn softwood. It's about what I charge for larch posts, rails and cladding. The firewood is the waste element when cutting that.

 

That's the problem with firewood in this country. It's a niche product that people only use when they see frost outside. Until it's widely accepted as a standard form of heating, it will always be boom or bust for firewood merchants. Better to make a small profit and sell lots (and consistently) than overcharge a few customers and go under when we have a mild winter.

 

It's endemic in the UK. Everything is overpriced, there is no correlation between production cost and final product cost. It's profiteering and it is (in my opinion) one of the reasons we swing between boom and bust.

 

Raw material A cost + labour cost + reasonable profit = final price.

 

from what your saying , the problem with the industry certainly in my eyes is you and the having a tesco mentality which values your labour at next to nothing you think pricing should be like 10-20% over production cost and nobody will buy if you charge sensible rates, if you run legit on a production of 3-400 tons your not earning much over min wage as it is. there are plenty people happy to buy quality irrelevant of the price. I'm still in business I buy my cord at £55 but all the competition manages to source at £30-£35 with their pricing structures they work more than twice as much to earn the same money I won't be worried until they start producing a similar quality at those prices.

[Big J]

from what your saying , the problem with the industry certainly in my eyes is you and the having a tesco mentality which values your labour at next to nothing you think pricing should be like 10-20% over production cost and nobody will buy if you charge sensible rates, if you run legit on a production of 3-400 tons your not earning much over min wage as it is. there are plenty people happy to buy quality irrelevant of the price. I'm still in business I buy my cord at £55 but all the competition manages to source at £30-£35 with their pricing structures they work more than twice as much to earn the same money I won't be worried until they start producing a similar quality at those prices.

 

There is nothing wrong with striving for efficiency and wanting not to overcharge your customers.

 

It's not just the fault of the producers, but also the customers for being ill educated. Most European users of firewood ensure a winter's worth of firewood is sat outside the house before winter starts. The most efficient way to produce and deliver firewood is to sell it green, as you are not sat on the stock (which is cash tied up, with the associated costs) and it reduces handling and storage (also large costs).

 

3-400 tonne puts you in the difficult middle ground of being small enough to be competing with the transit tipper axe wielding warriors and large enough to have significant costs.

 

Firewood is just fuel. It's timber we burn. It's not worth £120 a cube. It doesn't cost anywhere near that to produce. If you have to charge £120 to make a profit then you're either overpaying for your raw materials, or there is an awful inefficiency somewhere down the line. It's nothing personal to you, Lognstuff, it's a general frustration with the fact that everything is fiercely expensive in the UK, with firewood being no exception.

[Tom D]

from what your saying , the problem with the industry certainly in my eyes is you and the having a tesco mentality which values your labour at next to nothing you think pricing should be like 10-20% over production cost and nobody will buy if you charge sensible rates, if you run legit on a production of 3-400 tons your not earning much over min wage as it is. there are plenty people happy to buy quality irrelevant of the price. I'm still in business I buy my cord at £55 but all the competition manages to source at £30-£35 with their pricing structures they work more than twice as much to earn the same money I won't be worried until they start producing a similar quality at those prices.

 

I admire you for selling at a good price, nothing wrong with that. But I still can't see why you can't advertise a different per cube price for each packaging method. People understand that buying in bulk will be cheaper so whats the problem?

 

BTW how do you manage selling in nets? it must be way less profitable than the bulk bags no?

[Logsnstuff]

There is nothing wrong with striving for efficiency and wanting not to overcharge your customers.

 

It's not just the fault of the producers, but also the customers for being ill educated. Most European users of firewood ensure a winter's worth of firewood is sat outside the house before winter starts. The most efficient way to produce and deliver firewood is to sell it green, as you are not sat on the stock (which is cash tied up, with the associated costs) and it reduces handling and storage (also large costs).

 

3-400 tonne puts you in the difficult middle ground of being small enough to be competing with the transit tipper axe wielding warriors and large enough to have significant costs.

 

Firewood is just fuel. It's timber we burn. It's not worth £120 a cube. It doesn't cost anywhere near that to produce. If you have to charge £120 to make a profit then you're either overpaying for your raw materials, or there is an awful inefficiency somewhere down the line. It's nothing personal to you, Lognstuff, it's a general frustration with the fact that everything is fiercely expensive in the UK, with firewood being no exception.

 

give us a breakdown of the figures your working on to calculate a fair price it's been a while since anyone posted a breakdown for production storage and delivery.

overpaying on timber probably but it can be difficult to source here as the main company harvesting in this area keeps it all themselves and we don't have contacts on estates the 2 estates we used to get from both produce firewood now.

[Logsnstuff]

I admire you for selling at a good price, nothing wrong with that. But I still can't see why you can't advertise a different per cube price for each packaging method. People understand that buying in bulk will be cheaper so whats the problem?

 

BTW how do you manage selling in nets? it must be way less profitable than the bulk bags no?

 

nets are a pain in the backside and if we had enough demand to just do bulk bags I wouldn't go near nets but as I'm year round firewood I have time to fill them and we only have a couple of trade customers so 2-3k nets a year very few privates buy nets from us they usually go for a barrow bag.

[R5log]

Loose loads all the way, why mess about with bags

[Mortimer Firewood]

Loose loads all the way, why mess about with bags

 

How many times have we been here the pros of bags are obvious all the big merchants I know use bags coincidence I think not

[R5log]

Perfect trailer for delivering bags

Still loose loads are better

 

Will take a picture of creates for u Mortimor and put a sign in front so u know there mine

 

Not a library picture!!!!!

 

May even go 8 high

[Lee Winger]

I made a fortune out of selling logs by the net i was getting double the price compared to a three cube load, i delivered but i had a minimum of 10 bags

[Big J]

give us a breakdown of the figures your working on to calculate a fair price it's been a while since anyone posted a breakdown for production storage and delivery.

overpaying on timber probably but it can be difficult to source here as the main company harvesting in this area keeps it all themselves and we don't have contacts on estates the 2 estates we used to get from both produce firewood now.

 

As I said before, the efficiency in firewood comes from selling it green.

 

Cordwood - £52 a tonne delivered in. That's allowing a tenner a tonne for haulage.

 

Let's assume it's a hardwood mix, with some heavy species and some not so heavy. So perhaps 2.2 cubic metres to the tonne. Raw material cost is £23.64 per cube.

 

Let's also assume there is a decent processor involved. Hardwood is slower than softwood though (which I am reliably informed takes around 7 minutes per cube on average) so lets assume 20 minutes. Assuming you've got two guys on £8 an hour operating and supplying the processor, you've got a labour cost of £5.28.

 

Assuming your processor is diesel and it's doing 25 cube a day, it (and the forklift) might use about £1.50 in diesel per cube.

 

So you've got a produced cost (in yard, not delivered) of £30.42 per cube.

 

Yard costs - my yard (in it's original, and smallest incarnation before I expanded) was about a third of an acre (with a couple of small barns) and was large enough to accommodate 3-400 tonnes (800 cube) of firewood a year. That part of my yard costs me £330 a month, plus VAT. So £3960 a year, which is £4.95 a cube.

 

Delivery vehicle costs - Assume you buy a new 12ft Ifor tipper and a used £10k landy. Total cost £15k, value after 3 years probably £10k. £5k depreciation, plus probably £5k repairs is £4.16 a cube.

 

Machine costs - processor £15k, forklift £3.5k, chainsaws and other tools £2k. Again, assume a 3 year use and that it can be sold at the end for about £15k total. £5k depreciation and £5k repairs/maintenance is again £4.16 a cube.

 

So that's a fully costed in yard product at £43.69. The only other cost is the diesel to deliver it and the time of the person running the delivery. Given that a cube can be produced in 20 minutes (and is costed from the point of view of hired in labour), I struggle to figure out how just over forty quid becomes £120.