Barcham seminar. Charles Mynors, Trees & the Law

[Roz]

Kevin - Yes, I am a TO and I have been tasked to review all TPOs in the Borough - approx 500. I am lucky in that I have great support from both management and the GIS team who fully support using tablets etc so it has taken approx 12 months to set up a robust process and system that can be continued not just a one off project (while clearly carrying on the day job!!) I reckon its going to take 2 possibly 3 years to get through them all as I am having to bring together so much information spread across various paper systems - eventually to be available on -line. and of course the help and support of the legal team (who have their everyday work loads)

 

I think you will find that many a TO would love to review the TPOs on their patch due to ambiguities and ones served which can be difficult to justify or as I inherited in one case a Sycamore with three appeals dismissed (before my time) which was plotted incorrectly and was not actually TPO'd...................what can I say.

 

It aint a perfect world by any stretch and the main problem is resources and the job of a TO (if a LPA has one) being recognised by management............don't get me wrong this is not a moan I enjoy my job but boy some days I loose track of the hats I wear including being a samaritan !!

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

All understood Roz and yes, I recognise the job with many hats scenario after 29.5 years in the public sector myself! Thanks for the feedback.

 

How did you vote when Dr Mynors asked the question "more or less TPO's?"

 

I'm glad he split the question to take account of those that are LA employees as compared to those that are not LA employees given the number of LA employees in the room.

 

It's good to hear your area is carrying out a review (can you say which area?)

 

I've been working on a site where the group TPO was established in the '60s and there is no record of amendment or approval for works since then so (although only a single example) it's frustrating when there's a fairly blaze "we're too busy for reviews" type response when it's plain to see there is clearly a need for one.

 

I was in the non LA employee group and had a wishy/washy neither for nor against more TPOs vote on the basis that (and I think we can all agree) resources are currently stretched, so how can adding more "task" without more ability to manage it be a sensible option.

[Kveldssanger]

Kevin - Yes, I am a TO and I have been tasked to review all TPOs in the Borough - approx 500. I am lucky in that I have great support from both management and the GIS team who fully support using tablets etc so it has taken approx 12 months to set up a robust process and system that can be continued not just a one off project (while clearly carrying on the day job!!) I reckon its going to take 2 possibly 3 years to get through them all as I am having to bring together so much information spread across various paper systems - eventually to be available on -line. and of course the help and support of the legal team (who have their everyday work loads)

 

That's great to hear. I have tried pretty hard to get a GIS device to at least map TPO'd trees and do a proper inventory, though have been basically sidelined by the departments that can actually assist. I even had some meeting with GIS companies, though to no avail. I mapped around 4,500 trees by pen and paper, then took it to our software system and wrote down co-ordinates in a spreadsheet. I have decided that's no longer efficient, as I'm not even 10% of the way through.

 

I think you will find that many a TO would love to review the TPOs on their patch due to ambiguities and ones served which can be difficult to justify or as I inherited in one case a Sycamore with three appeals dismissed (before my time) which was plotted incorrectly and was not actually TPO'd...................what can I say.

 

Absolutely. For instance, I looked at some trees yesterday. Lawson cypress, not even that large, all TPO'd. Bizarre...

 

It aint a perfect world by any stretch and the main problem is resources and the job of a TO (if a LPA has one) being recognised by management............don't get me wrong this is not a moan I enjoy my job but boy some days I loose track of the hats I wear including being a samaritan !!

 

This rings true!

[Kveldssanger]

To add to the discussion, do you consider that, if TPOs were to be entirely abolished, a different method of safeguarding would be necessary?

[Gary Prentice]

I'm happy to review, as long as there's no devious motive involved, or a bid to then usurp my judgement.

 

 

 

We have three arb' officers, though our jobs also involve contract monitoring of other grounds contracts. Not 100% arb', now.

 

It is unfortunate that arb' officers aren't seen as essential in some LAs. Simply highlights the level of ignorance of the industry by laymen, frankly.

 

 

 

 

Hah!

 

Unfortunately your council appears to be becoming a minority. It would be interesting to have a new 'trees in towns' survey to see what the current staffing levels are across the country.

[Kveldssanger]

Unfortunately your council appears to be becoming a minority. It would be interesting to have a new 'trees in towns' survey to see what the current staffing levels are across the country.

 

It may be to do with the fact the current manager of the entire section was an arb' officer. It's good to know the manager understands the critical nature of our role for the authority.

 

And yes, another survey would be good. How would one go about acquiring such data?

[Gary Prentice]

The collection of tree data is detailed in one of the Trees in towns reports, but the questionnaire data was sent to every LA. IIRC information also came from the Hort Press relating to TO job adverts over a period of time.

 

I did at one time consider something similar for my independent research project, but wasn't convinced I'd get enough replies to make it statistically viable.

[Gary Prentice]

To add to the discussion, do you consider that, if TPOs were to be entirely abolished, a different method of safeguarding would be necessary?

 

Speaking/messaging Kevin yesterday about this, and I still think it would make a good thread in its own right.

 

Personally I think we need, as a country, greater protection not less. I can't think of a better method than the TPO system, despite some of its faults, with an arboriculturist 'controlling' tree works.

 

There's just to many threats to canopy cover and I think groups like TDAG are kidding themselves if they think that greater understanding of tree related benefits are becoming more widely accepted.

 

As a whole, the absence of arboricultural input into the highest level of government policy and strategy is lacking, with little to filter down to regional and local level. The Arboricultural Officer or arboriculturist is identified as the 'tree man' with little understanding of what they bring to the table. Sorry I'm going off track, but as you said you benefit because the manager is arb qualified and understands the importance.

 

As a contractor, most people I meet view trees as a hindrance or a barrier to their objectives. Less protection would equal less trees. My pessamistic viewpoint is that the current protection of conservation areas, TPOs and planning conditions are failing. The legislation/regulations/means are there but the resources to effectively police and implement them are inadequate and ineffective.

[Kveldssanger]

Speaking/messaging Kevin yesterday about this, and I still think it would make a good thread in its own right.

 

I shall make one.

 

 

Personally I think we need, as a country, greater protection not less. I can't think of a better method than the TPO system, despite some of its faults, with an arboriculturist 'controlling' tree works.

 

I absolutely agree with you on this point. The cynic in me, likely developed through mere observation of how people perceive trees when I talk with them during inspections, would expect trees to be felled more frequently and, initially, en masse, if TPOs were entirely rescinded with publicity. Unfortunately, I do not trust the general person to understand, nor care, about the longevity and retention of tree populations.

 

 

There's just to many threats to canopy cover and I think groups like TDAG are kidding themselves if they think that greater understanding of tree related benefits are becoming more widely accepted.

 

Unfortunately, this is probably the case. Nothing has demonstrated, at least in my experience, people becoming more aware of tree importance. The only people that make noise about tree issues are those that already understand the benefits. We need to teach this stuff from a very young age by exposing our youth to the wonders of urban tree populations, woodlands and deep forests, if we are to see a marked improvement in how people perceive trees. Unfortunately the curriculum is too hell-bent on being a conveyor-belt system that throws kids in and churns them out as mindless drones, doing little to garner genuine progression.

 

 

As a whole, the absence of arboricultural input into the highest level of government policy and strategy is lacking, with little to filter down to regional and local level. The Arboricultural Officer or arboriculturist is identified as the 'tree man' with little understanding of what they bring to the table. Sorry I'm going off track, but as you said you benefit because the manager is arb qualified and understands the importance.

 

This was picked up on in the latest AA magazine in the Modern arboriculture - time to catch up? article by Jeremy Barrell. The industry is simply not treated with the weighting it needs to be treated with. I think two things are halting genuine progression - (1) ignorance and; (2) lack of accessibility. We need more people like Mattheck, using their unique (and frankly very engaging) methods of teaching people about tree science with silly little drawings and easily-understood text. Continued churning-out of (what should be critical) journal articles and texts that remain exclusively within the industry, almost as a let's congratulate ourselves for writing yet another scientific paper with impossibly complex words and phrases, need to be supported by clear-cut, short, succinct publications, that anyone can understand. The industry cannot invoke interest if it does little in the way of creating accessibility.

 

 

As a contractor, most people I meet view trees as a hindrance or a barrier to their objectives. Less protection would equal less trees. My pessamistic viewpoint is that the current protection of conservation areas, TPOs and planning conditions are failing. The legislation/regulations/means are there but the resources to effectively police and implement them are inadequate and ineffective.

 

You sum this up perfectly.

[Nick Harrison]

As a whole, the absence of arboricultural input into the highest level of government policy and strategy is lacking, with little to filter down to regional and local level. The Arboricultural Officer or arboriculturist is identified as the 'tree man' with little understanding of what they bring to the table. Sorry I'm going off track, but as you said you benefit because the manager is arb qualified and understands the importance.

 

i think this hits the nail on the head. i've only been a TO at a LA for just over a year and the above is already so clearly evident. there's plenty of qualified research out there extolling the benefits of the urban tree population but without backing from high up our industry seems to come bottom of the list as far as council budgets go. you've only to compare tree/open space budgets with highways or street lighting to see where we are in the pecking order. how we change this scenario is a completely different debate but i think central govt is where it's got to start.

 

As a contractor, most people I meet view trees as a hindrance or a barrier to their objectives. Less protection would equal less trees. My pessamistic viewpoint is that the current protection of conservation areas, TPOs and planning conditions are failing. The legislation/regulations/means are there but the resources to effectively police and implement them are inadequate and ineffective.

this too, from my experience, is so true. it's a sad state of affairs but we can only hope that recent efforts such as the i-tree eco project can help push our issues up the agenda. Lord Framlingham fighting our corner is a start but is it enough?

 

no answers to offer, just chewing the fat