Europe? In or Out?!

[easy-lift guy]

I believe that joining the EU was never really in the best interest of the UK, more of a pipe dream trying to create a united Europe of something or another. Joining the EU was a mistake on behalf of the UK. Keeping the £ as your primary currency source was a wise decision. Continuing to fund the EU and additional new rules and regulations being implemented by Brussels in my opinion is a loose loose for the UK.

Considering the regulation nation that IMHO the UK has going now, why in the world should the citizens of the UK give up more for the perceived need to belong?

My Two cents.

easy-lift guy

[daltontrees]

Rubbish!!

 

They said that about our not changing to the Euro, there was going to be a "two speed EU" with us left in the slow lane………………..well it worked out somewhat differently didn't it

 

OK, the first things that come to my mind about short-term difficulties that will arise and may become permanent.

1. Plant Health - our domestic legislation arises from European Conventions, in other words a Europe-wide co-ordinates attempt to control the spread of pests adn diseases. Wave bye-bye to that and say hello to Emerald Ash Borer, Asian Longhorn etc. I expect our national assets (woodlands and forests) would be at a higher risk of being wiped off the UK balance sheet.

2. Import and export of plants will definitely become more difficult and therefore probably more expensive because there will no longer be a common labelling standard.

3. European partners with any one of 30 nearby countries to choose to trade with in timber and the like could shun the UK for any reason whatsoever (including the above issues), whereas the UK doesn't have that option to shun its trading partners. An uneven playing field leads to competitive advantages for Europe and disadvantages for UK.

4. No-one in this country will be able to go and work in Europe.

5. UK business will be excluded from bidding on large OJEU contracts.

6. Climbing gear that is CE certified may not be usable in this country if it cannot be LOLERed ar LOLER exempt, we will have to return to a set of redundant BSs, meaning products (ropes, harnesses) may only be purchasable from within UK.

7. European governments and the Commission will (and I mean will) go out of its way to make trading with UK more difficult. If you think they're difficult just now, wait till they have a good reason.

8. International companies may choose to relocate to mainland europe, for some of the reasons that they have declared their intention to get out of Scotlnadn if it goes independent. Why make trucks here if you can't bring in mobile labour and CE certified parts when you need to. They can still sell to Britain but may not buy labour and goods. Bang goes the main hope Britain has to close its trade deficit.

 

I didn't say we couldn't trade with Europe or survive without membershi of it, but it would eb folly to assume it wouldn't be more difficult. A UK government will find bureaucracy to fill the void left by Europe. It always does. Every new government that comes in promises to have a bonfire of quangos and to rid the state of deadwood, and everyone fails partly and replaces what it removed under a different name because it realises that it was there because it was somehow needed. The british are whingers, have a listen to Jeremy Vine or read the Daily Mail any day. That's where rules and bureaucracy comes from. From within. It won't go a way and if it does you will want it back because anything else is a license for cowboy contractors, makers and sellers of faulty chainsaws and tax dodgers.

[easy-lift guy]

Jules, How did the UK survive before joining the EU?. How many millions of £££'s could be saved by adopting everything that is presently being imposed upon the citizens of the UK by Brussels. Courage and common sense could prevail if the citizens of the UK learn that more of a bad thing is really not in the best interest of the country as a whole.

easy-lift guy

[daltontrees]

Jules, How did the UK survive before joining the EU?. How many millions of £££'s could be saved by adopting everything that is presently being imposed upon the citizens of the UK by Brussels. Courage and common sense could prevail if the citizens of the UK learn that more of a bad thing is really not in the best interest of the country as a whole.

easy-lift guy

 

Before I answer that, can you please confirm if you are a US citizen and what your experiences are of living in UK and/or Europe? I'm not trying to trap you into anything here, I am just wantig to establish context for a suitably tailored reply.

[easy-lift guy]

Before I answer that, can you please confirm if you are a US citizen and what your experiences are of living in UK and/or Europe? I'm not trying to trap you into anything here, I am just wantig to establish context for a suitably tailored reply.

 

Last time I checked I was a US Citizen. I have been conducting business internationally for the last 7 years and I am 3 generation Polish American.

Also I have visited the UK 2 times in the last Two years on business,pleasure.

I hope that I have provided enough information for you to tailor a response that is suitable.

easy-lift guy

[Commando]

Jules, How did the UK survive before joining the EU?. How many millions of £££'s could be saved by adopting everything that is presently being imposed upon the citizens of the UK by Brussels. Courage and common sense could prevail if the citizens of the UK learn that more of a bad thing is really not in the best interest of the country as a whole.

easy-lift guy

 

 

We used to trade with the commonwealth but turned our backs on them when we joined the Common Market. Countries like Australia, Canada, NZ and much of Africa. Things move on, without European trade we would now be stuffed. However as many have already stated, we originally joined a common market not the United States of Europe. Personally I think we should tell Europe that we don't want to be part of the Union but remain a trade and defence partner. We have enough influence to be able to argue the case to 'have our cake and eat it'. Apart from the obvious trade benefits we are also stronger as a military partner with Europe, lets face it the world needs a 'stable' superpower to stand up to the US of A!! (sounds good in theory anyway, getting all countries to vote on anything militarily, is another issue! ;-)

We need a referendum sooner rather than later! That way we can deal with the outcome..... one way or another!

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

...defence partner... stronger as a military partner with Europe, lets face it the world needs a 'stable' superpower to stand up to the US of A!!...

!

 

[Paul Jenks]

The challenge with any black or white question is that the answer is not usually a black or white one.

We, as citizens, are not party to all, or even most, of the relevant information required to make qualified decisions on the subject. We can express our views based on what we know, what we think we know and what the man down the pub told us he heard on Jeremy Whine. (That's not to say there are none on here with very sensible and well informed views from both sides of the argument.)

40 odd years of international legislative bureaucracy is tied into our agreements with Europe, covering everything from trade, defence, healthcare, tourism, law, human rights, environment etc, etc. To unpick these is possible, just. Is it worth it?

Many businesses would benefit from a break with the EU. Many would also suffer. Business has to be one of the fundamental components of any decision making process. The reason being that business is what drives the economy and generates the tax that pays for all government does. The complexity of the breakdown of winners/losers and the impacts on employment, trade deficit, income tax, corporation tax, future investment, tourism etc is far to onerous for a dualistic in or out discussion. Without clear monetary values assigned to each of the areas with the potential to be affected in the immediate future after a change and further into the future, (complex computer modelling required), we might as well try to stick a tail on a donkey whilst blindfolded as an equally satisfactory decision making process.

[daltontrees]

Last time I checked I was a US Citizen. I have been conducting business internationally for the last 7 years and I am 3 generation Polish American.

Also I have visited the UK 2 times in the last Two years on business,pleasure.

I hope that I have provided enough information for you to tailor a response that is suitable.

easy-lift guy

 

Thanks. You may be aware then that after 2 world wars the allies in Europe would probably have lost to the axis powers unless it had been for teh intervention of other coutries like USA and Canada, with troops, supplies, munitions and finances. EDurope was in tatters after the second world war. The US Marshall Plan provided finance and help (putting europe in hock to teh USA for decades afterwards, but beggars can't be choosers). Quoting from Wikipedia "The goals of the United States were to rebuild war-devastated regions, remove trade barriers, modernize industry, and make Europe prosperous again. The underlying objective form a US selfish perspective in it's self-appointed role as moral judge, jury ad executioner of the world, was to stabilise europe and so prevent the spread of communism.

 

It worked. Suggesting UK made a mistake in joining is with the benefit of hindsight not that plausible. It had little or no choice in the matter. One could probably argue that if it had come out of the war as badly as Gerany, it would have modernised out of necessity a lot more and would have put itself on a sound competitive footing with the rest of teh world. But instead two world wars gave temporary reprieve to the inevitable decline of heavy industry and Britain didn't have to reinvent itself at the same time as everrywhere else, remaining dependent and complacent on heavy industry so that when that ended there was and is very little to fall back on in secondary (or even primary) industries. We are still heavily dependent on service industries, meaning we try to make a living by trading and being clever, and we have to import more than we can export. Tampering with solid trading links is a risky stategy because we can't afford (literally) to get it wrong.

 

Europe-bashing is all the rage just now. It is far too easy to forget the good things that came fromand still come from europe, and getting a balanced view on this just now is difficult. Hiowever, I have in the past been personally involved in projects which received 10s of millions of £s from Europe without which the urban areas I was working in would be ghost towns.

 

Bash away, all of you, but please make an informed decision. The greatest wisdom I have acquired is tha tther eis no such thing as black or white, no such thing as right or wrong, no such thing as truth. Everything is in shades or cannot be known. Anyone who is at either extreme end of the spectrum hasn't in my opinion, thought it through. It is a finely balanced judgement to stay in or get out. Personally I think it's crazy, but I only have one vote.

[felixthelogchopper]

Given the way that the current Government have been steadily dismantling the UK's armed forces, I would think that they are planning to be part of a combined European 'superarmy' in the future rather than being able to take care of ourselves.