All the trees are blowing down.... But?

[JimM]

You can't let them get on with it, Rich. That would mean someone in our community has to suffer injury or worse to get things sorted.

I'm firmly in the 32/34/35 gang. Up here you've got to get the council lads wearing PPE in the first place. That would be a good start.

[AlexB]

I have to say I totally agree. I don't work in Arb but I work across a lot of other industries and I see people confusing certificates and course attendance for ability and the right behaviour. Part of the problem is HR and Health and Safety reqs - it's easy to measure / prove that someone attended a course / has a certificate even if it means nothing in the workplace. I've seen lots of people with the ability and correct attitude but no certificates and vice versa but we've become hung up on trying to make everything academical.

 

(and I say this as someone with a degree (but no chainsaw certs!))

 

Again, not the point. In a commercial environment there is a legal obligation to ensure the people you use are qualified to do the job.

 

We pretty much agree that the piece of paper proves nothing other than attendance and you're £500 poorer.

[gensetsteve]

I think quals backed up with some proper in depth experience equals the real deal. In my day job I come across alot of youngsters that have fast tracked themselves with certificates most survive but some have very curly hair some of the practices I have seen in the last few weeks during the storms beggars belief you only get one chance with 11,000 volts.

[AlexB]

So let them get on with it. I'm sure when it all goes wrong they will see the bad side of HSE, and the law suit that will follow.

 

If the councils don't ask to see the right tickets then they will also see the dark side, and will a council office bod even know what tickets they should even have???

 

This is my point/question. Of those who deal with councils etc, who has the ticket and has been asked for these qualifications? As an industry we have a lot of paperwork, especially those of us who deal with governmental organisations. Perhaps this is one where we can be a step ahead.

 

I acknowledge if you're on an emergency rate you not likely to turn around and say "sorry guv, not got my ticket for that" but in reality it's the equivalent of some one with a post 97 driving licence towing a trailer over 750kgs without doing a trailer test. You may well be fully capable etc etc.

[JimM]

we've become hung up on trying to make everything academical.

 

(and I say this as someone with a degree (but no chainsaw certs!))

 

34/35 is not academical. It's a couple of days slogging in invariably crap conditions underfoot (which is usually where you find multi thrown) dragging and setting up winches carefully, cos if you get it wrong you're going to get hurt. Cutting the root plate free correctly so that your saw doesn't get thrown. Gaining the realisation that doing windthrow is a slow, expensive, and risky business, with hardly any profit to be made.

Plus a lot of the time machinery can't get in, cos the sodden conditions that led to the windthrow make it too boggy for them to get near.

[JimM]

OFF, do you think FISA would gain inroads in the councils to make some sort of difference? Regardless of how you view FISA, it maybe has the connections to push for improved skills.

[AlexB]

34/35 is not academical. It's a couple of days slogging in invariably crap conditions underfoot (which is usually where you find multi thrown) dragging and setting up winches carefully, cos if you get it wrong you're going to get hurt. Cutting the root plate free correctly so that your saw doesn't get thrown. Gaining the realisation that doing windthrow is a slow, expensive, and risky business, with hardly any profit to be made.

Plus a lot of the time machinery can't get in, cos the sodden conditions that led to the windthrow make it too boggy for them to get near.

 

Such a pretty picture, I must be sick as I love it. We've managed to make 380m3 accessible to a harvester in the last 2 days. Luckily not too wet, this stuff is down as the stands been thinned and had a clear fell on the windward side.

[AlexB]

OFF, do you think FISA would gain inroads in the councils to make some sort of difference? Regardless of how you view FISA, it maybe has the connections to push for improved skills.

 

It's worth initiating the dialog I guess. I'm pro fisa so long as those operators who are willing to take it on board are able to earn enough to pay for the training/professional development.

[daltontrees]

Again, not the point. In a commercial environment there is a legal obligation to ensure the people you use are qualified to do the job.

 

We pretty much agree that the piece of paper proves nothing other than attendance and you're £500 poorer.

 

Sorry to disagree, but although you have taken this from Logrod's posting I don't think you can or even should conclude this. Getting the ticket demonstrates competence, and that's what the law demands. What you do with the ticket after that is usually in my experience a matter of commercial pressure and individual attitude. Old hads either get better through experience or worse through complacence. I don't see that it is the client's or the industry's place to separate the two.

 

I recently described the taming of multiple windthrow to one of the guys as the 'game of champions', nothing is more complex, rarely are the forces more complex and 3 dimensional and their release more explosive. We spent 2 hours on one rootplate one day (it had 9 trees on it), it was the most exhausting and exhilarating and satisfying game of Kerponk ever.

 

£500 seems a small price to pay to stay alive?

[AlexB]

Sorry to disagree, but although you have taken this from Logrod's posting I don't think you can or even should conclude this. Getting the ticket demonstrates competence, and that's what the law demands. What you do with the ticket after that is usually in my experience a matter of commercial pressure and individual attitude. Old hads either get better through experience or worse through complacence. I don't see that it is the client's or the industry's place to separate the two.

 

I recently described the taming of multiple windthrow to one of the guys as the 'game of champions', nothing is more complex, rarely are the forces more complex and 3 dimensional and their release more explosive. We spent 2 hours on one rootplate one day (it had 9 trees on it), it was the most exhausting and exhilarating and satisfying game of Kerponk ever.

 

£500 seems a small price to pay to stay alive?

 

Again, not the point! I hold cs35. The value of tickets is not the issue I'm trying to raise. Please read my opening post.