Advice on future Plans please

[muttley9050]

Hi guys.

Im 34, primarily a builder/carpenter, whos passion has always been woodcraft, milling timber and making nice things out of the beautiful wood and not pouring concrete in the ground. The last few years i've been working extra hard developing a couple of properties and when i sell the house i have on the market at the moment i will have enough cash to make some changes. Here's what im thinking.

Firstly i should point out i have a reasonably well equipped wood shop/workshop at home. and a van and trailer.

Im thinking of buying 10 or so acres of woodland, a peterson ats 10" swing mill(hopefully second hand) and an atv or tractor?

I would like to sell some milled and dried timber, a little firewood(but only the waste or rubbish) Make garden furniture etc and continue to make and sell things from my workshop. Also some mobile milling if works there and maybe green oak timber frame buildings.

My aim would be to work 3-4 days per week and turn a modest income in many different ways. (partner earns enough for us anyway as we live in housing co-op/intentional community,so life is cheap and expectations low).

Am I missing something,what are your thoughts.

Oh and i have easy out for chord length firewood and some of the lumber ill produce plus bro-in-law highly trained in tree surgery andwoodland management etc so plenty free advice. He thinks its possible

What are your thought advice?

Sorry for long post.

Help much appreciated

James

[tuttle]

try and wind down the hard work, and employ a few people.

[muttley9050]

but i kinda like hard work:001_smile:

Id always pull people in on days they were needed but wouldn't want to employ anybody regular.

[Rick2517]

Only worry/thing to look into if it was me is what the complications of housing the work shop you have will be, is it a garage attached to the house in a residential area? do you have or will you be able to get change of use and if so what would the business rates and overheads be? If you where to bring in timber and build something from it and then sell it there I think you may come under industrial use!! I'm no expert and this maybe something you have looked into.

Also take time to write a good business plan (if not already done so) there are loads of free templates online or I can send you one if you wish.

 

Good luck rich

[muttley9050]

Basically i live on an 18 acre site that isowned by a housing co-op, i rent my workshop in addition to my living accomodation, its very nice and very cheap, have 5 acres of woodland on site too belonging to co-op. It very nice and very cheap. Not worried about change of use as outbuildings have permission for commercial use, and would be small scale, i would build a barn in the woodland for storage of lumber for sale under permitted development rights. Things like benches and tables etc i would like to make in woodland if possible. workshop would be for smaller bad weather projects.

Thanks for advice. much appreciated

[Rick2517]

Sounds like you're situation is perfect for what you are trying to achieve, I would love to have a nice bit of land that I could use as a yard.

[agg221]

I'd look carefully at your calculations. 10 acres of timber-sized trees, say 100 trees to the acre, gives you 1000 trees. On a 100yr rotation, this gives a sustainable timber harvest of 10/yr. If you buy more mature woodland and harvest over a shorter period you can increase the harvest rate - say you want 30yrs worth of harvest you can now take 30/yr. Is this enough? Do you need to consider added costs from buying in?

 

The more value you add, the fewer trees you need to harvest as your time is occupied in adding value rather than harvesting trees and you earn a lot more per tree, so producing end product rather than seasoned timber is more likely to add up.

 

I'd also seriously consider a bandsaw mill rather than a swing mill. Most woodland grown timber isn't that large a diameter (2ft or so). You will need to differentiate your product and this would be easier by using wider boards, as you will never compete in the bulk production of standard small section constructional type timber. Being able to add maximum value to a small number of sawlogs by processing them flexibly into whatever is needed will give you the most value.

 

For ideas, try looking at some of Rob D's threads on here. It's more chainsaw mill production focussed, but things like his picnic benches (or more recently the ones shown in a thread started by Delabodge) give a good idea of the type of thing that can be done.

 

Ultimately though, one thing to consider is that creativity rarely sells. You have to accept that there will be items which sell, and items which don't. Making the things which sell in the most efficient way possible is actually a miniaturised version of production line manufacturing - just a point to bear in mind as to how it isn't always true creativity that pays the bills.

 

Alec

[muttley9050]

Thanks for that Alec. Interesting, here's my thoughts.

I was thinking of 10" swing mill with a 5ft slabber and tapered board attatchments, because i figured then i cover all bases. Better for me in my construction background as i can cut dimensional lumber for my own building projects and cladding etc. Once a tree is felled i can set up the mill around it, eliminating the need for expensive handling equipment or employing people to aid movement of unmilled butts.

Selling seasoned lumber would not be my main concern, only i know a couple of small scale producers crying out for unavailable local timber.

I appreciate that once something is made it needs selling which is never easy in this climate, but would continue to take the odd commision as i do know. Seem to do lot of inbuilt wardrobes and such at the moment which would make me more money as icould also supply the lumber. Primarily i would always keep lumber for me and sell what isnt needed.

Ive seen a woodland locally which my bro says is in bad need of thining and alot could be taken out only problem access is terrible(guess thats why it needs thinning)

Your figures on sustainable harvest are interesting, and i guess 6-8 trees per year would keep me happy for what i need. remember this is part time work for me(3 days is ideal as i spend time growing food and on animal husbandry at the co-op)

Any further thoughts much appreciated, especially on type of mill and cant do without equipment.

Thanks

James

[breffni]

Your situation sounds ideal. How did you get in with the co-op?

[agg221]

Hi James,

 

The mill you propose would cover the bases, but I would still personally veer towards a bandmill.

 

I don't do this commercially in any sense, but I've milled quite a lot of timber, for my own use (70ft canal boat, 40ft canal boat, another canal boat underway and a house extension). This has been singlehanded, almost exclusively. I've done this on an extremely small budget, but the aim has been to mill timber fast enough that it doesn't become the primary exercise - there was a point when I was using an 064 and an Alaskan mill and for a while I went over to buying in timber as the time/cost calculation didn't work. I simply couldn't mill fast enough and was spending all my time milling rather than using the timber. In the course of doing this I've found the following:

 

Did you get your driving licence before 1997? I did and I've found that a 7.5 ton lorry has a 20ft deck, which defines a maximum length. I also have the trailer entitlement. Of the two, I'd go for the latter if you have to take one or the other. I drive a Volvo estate which will pull 1.8 tons. I bought an 8'x4' plant trailer which is big enough to move timber up to about 18' long and strong enough to carry it stuck over the top, rather than having to fit inside. This means I can move most butts, or milled timber, easily.

 

It doesn't work if you have to carry every piece of milled timber out of the woods individually. You need some form of wheeled, ideally mechanised, transport. I have used things as simple as a pair of wheels on a short axle, or a wheelbarrow, but really you need something that will tow a trailer or a log arch. The alternative is to batch it up, then hire something - be it a small tractor, quad or horse extraction team. Milled timber is more likely to get nicked than a large log, so you don't want to leave it roadside for too long while you make a series of trips. Large logs can be left roadside much more safely while you make a series of trips, possibly over several days.

 

If you buy your own quad or tractor, make sure it fits in the trailer! (I bought a small ancient 2wd dumper which works fine so long as you run it in reverse for towing).

 

Having tried both, I prefer bringing butts to me rather than the mill to the butt, wherever possible, even though I've only had portable mills. This is because you need so many bits and pieces that I always find I either forget something, or have to improvise when something breaks, and with all the spares to cover every contingency it takes up far more space than the 'portable' description would indicate. If I mill at home (which conveniently I can) then everything is in the shed so I can sort out problems as they arise and if the weather turns bad or I need a spare that I haven't got, I can just stop and do something else. I know people do treat milling as truly portable, but it hasn't suited me.

 

I use an engine hoist for loading butts. It's manual, but I can lift every piece into the trailer, put it together in under a minute and it will lift a ton onto the trailer. Get it right and I can load a butt in 20mins from parking to driving off again, which is good enough for me.

 

I prefer bandsaws because they can take wide boards which means I can then cut around defects and choose the best grain. I also like the narrow kerf which helps yield, particularly on smaller logs. I use a fully manual chainsaw-mounted bandsaw, which is smaller than ideal (14" width, 9" throat) but I can pick it up and carry it. If I have to mill in-situ, I can literally stick everything I need in a wheelbarrow or two and take it into the woods for the day. However, given the choice I'd go for a larger bandmill (like a Woodmizer or equivalent) and accept that I had to move more butts to it.

 

Other must-have equipment - consider how you are going to fell the trees so you'll need an appropriate saw, PPE and training in both saw operation and maintenance (although this could be informal from your brother-in-law). Consider that it is hugely preferable not to work on your own when felling, so you would need a second person then anyway. You will need chains, strops, a winch (I use a Tirfor) - this is partly for moving timber and partly for when trees hang up on felling. If you mill in-situ I would advise a heavy jack for rolling logs to the best orientation. I use an old railway toe jack but any form of ratchet jack will work. Some form of lever bar is also very useful - I use a 6' length of 3"x2" box-section steel with an angle plate welded on the end. It's overkill for most things, but the huge leverage is worth having when you have to move things on your own, and the length gives you plenty of places to get purchase. You will need to season the timber, so whether this is kiln or air-dry you will need an enormous amount of stickers - I make mine from old pallets.

 

Hope these thoughts are of some use!

 

Alec