My grinder ate a gas pipe!

[Arob]

No Bob not even the owner knew it was there, he planted a tree over the top and the stake was driven down beside it a few years ago but the tree died hence me grinding the stump so he could replant.

 

Reading that reminded me of a story we were told at college where all of the trees along a roadside died quickly and mysteriously, it turned out that there was an underground gas leak and the concentration of gas in the soil disrupted root function. (Perhaps i should've kept that to myself? )

 

Anyway back on the main topic, we did a project a few years ago, amongst other things we were removing an earth bank, rebuilding a buckled perimeter wall removing some trees and shrubs then redoing the garden. i cat scanned the site which helped locate the line of the media cable but didn't/couldn't pick up the plastic gas pipe, so we too found that with a grinder.

 

I argued that we acted responsibly, that the recommended depth for service pipe below pavement was 450mm, therefore working at that proximity to the pavement, at the depth we were working we should've been well clear. I argued that not only was the pipe laid without warning tape or any form of cover (aggregate etc) it was laid with a sharp upward incline onto the property meaning it came up to just 1/7 recommended depth. They played hardball saying it was only recommendations and recommendations aren't enforceable in law and advised they'd take it to court as they had done so before and were very confident they'd win again etc etc.

 

I argued their charge of about £700 (?) was unreasonable as they'd only sent two vans out; first just one man in a van to plug the split with some putty, the second van had two men put a clamp on on the mains side, cut out a six inch section and replaced it with a sleeve on either side which was electro-welded to seal, including paperwork it took each crew 20 - 30 mins to do his job. I ended up paying about half the original charge.

 

In addition to that we trenched the line of the pipe to bury it to depth, then covered and laid a warning tape, so that was an additional cost to the business.

 

The first guy that came out, the one with the putty, told us that it is not unknown for builders to plug such a leak with clay, at the time i thought that to be inexcusable, but following my own experience, whilst it'd certainly not endorse such a potentially dangerous action, i would now say that i can understand why someone might be tempted to do that.

 

So sorry about that, would've been nice to say i took them to court and blasted them all over, but i didn't. I did contact the Arb Assn hoping they'd add some weight (was a member at the time) but they weren't interested.

 

At some point before or since i made enquiries about getting the gas board to identify pipe runs prior to starting jobs, iirc they'll happily take a couple of hundred quid off me to show me a rough diagram that they couldn't guarantee to be reliable, nor iirc, would it indemnify me in the event of another pipe strike.

Which is interesting.

[melvyn]

We refer to our responsibility and customers responsibiltiy on our stumpgrinding website.

We refer to HSE guidelines and make it clear that failure to disclose information on location of services endangers our operatives and they themselves could be liable for personal injury.That way there is no need to sign anything,its there for all the world to see.

Stump grinding specialists in North Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire, stumpgrinding and consultancy services, NPTC, LANTRA, CHAS and local trading standards approval, operating throughout the East Yorkshire, North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnsh

[LGP Eddie]

I can't see customers signing a form making them responsible, I certainly would not sign such a form if I were having work done.

 

It depends on what basis you were having the work done surely?

 

There's basically two ways to go about it,

 

Firstly simply charging by the hour or day to be 'On Hire' to the client and act under their own directions.

This is where you would produce your term/conditions and have them signed so they agree that they are responsible for damage you caused whilst acting under their direction including underground services.

Obviously you can then charge accordingly as the responsibility has been removed and simply work to their directions.

Most of the Man and Mini Digger guys run on this basis hence so cheap to hire for the day.

 

Second case is where you will have given a price to undertake the works (hopefully a written quote) and this is where you then simply turn up and get the whole job done to their satisfaction with all damage being your responsibility.

This is where you need to be factoring in the chance that damage may be done and ensuring all steps are taken to minimise the risk.

Keep all records of contact with utilities before you commence (dial before you dig etc) and photo's of trial holes to uncover services as the Insurance company may ask for evidence of any steps taken to minimise risk.

 

I used to do loads of driveway dig outs only (no paving) on a price and the procedure was the same on each one.

We would take the usual collection of narrow grafting spades/manhole keys when viewing to quote for the work and uncover everything relevant that we

knew was running to/from the property then photograph the trial holes.

If BT and Electric is overhead you're onto a winner straight away, so doesn't usually take long and you get a sixth sense for where they are after a while.

 

Prospective clients would be slightly shocked, but you could see what they were thinking, these guys know their stuff and care to look before we've even given them the job.

On the actual dig out day we would always go back to any trial holes and uncover the services, then usually trace along them by removing some cover by machine and finishing off by hand.

Yes it takes a bit longer, but even a basic water service repair will take the edge of a job so worth it in the long run.

 

I just wanted to point out the other big trap that's out there for the unwary and that's 'Hired Plant Insurance'.

Not everyone is aware that when that 15k of Mini Digger lands on your driveway for the day for you to play on at £50 per day and £30 transport, then your are totally responsible for that machine.

If you see the term CPA model conditions and the company is a member then they are really stacking things against you.

The CPA is a great organisation that will back it's members fully on the legal side, and it's Model Conditions are in reality the industry standard.

I've seen it so many times where people have damaged machines and then got landed with large repair bills that come as a complete shock.

The worst case scenario is if it's stolen as you then not only have to fund it's total replacement at usually new for old, but also 2/3rds of the hire rate for all the time the machine is not available to the hirer!

It's genuinely scary stuff and I've seen both sides with people landed with huge bills for mini digger panels and the like plus actual plant hirers smiling because that machine they've had 10 months work out of already is going to be replaced by new and someone is also paying the hire all the time he's waiting.

 

Sometimes is just better to get an Owner Operator in to do the job, but if you need to Self Drive Hire check your insurance or take out a short term policy from the hire company or someone like JCB Insurance who do them online even for a day.

 

Eddie.

[Billy]

Back when I used to driveways a lot with someone else's firm we repaired a few of those gas pipes, was dead easy and local builders merchants supplied the bits knowing what they were for!

[Shane]

Pat,

That stump grinder is nothing but trouble - ever thought about selling it!!!!!

 

But seriously - this whole business is a nightmare, front gardens and streetwork are potential expense pits. Why do we do it?

[Pat Ferrett]

Pat,

That stump grinder is nothing but trouble - ever thought about selling it!!!!!

 

But seriously - this whole business is a nightmare, front gardens and streetwork are potential expense pits. Why do we do it?

 

Evening Shane, Nice try but it was'nt the 252 it was the little blue bird grinder.

 

As to why we bother, fresh air and being our own bosses, so I've been told

[Shane]

Youre right - I've worked for e few in the past that I don't ever want to meet again.

 

I drove past a gap in Bognor where a big pine once stood - Nice removal!

 

Near Silverstone Rd - was that the one you were telling me about. I remember it was a big old fella.

 

PS that avatar cracks me up you must find those wolly undies quite itchy.

[Dean Lofthouse]

I recon Im just having a run of Lofthouse luck

 

I wouldn't wish that on anyone

 

I haven't read through the whole thread but I think as bob says, new plastic pipes have a metallic strip running through them, but I do believe you have to connect a signal generator to them to detect them with a cat

[Treemon]

Bit off topic- we had a crew working on a National Grid site about 2 months ago where a test drilling operation was being undertaken for a new fence - the 132 kv cable was supposed to be at 130cm they drilled to 120cm BANG - to cut long story short the site is still closed down with a melted drilling rig on top and our tracked chipper has only just been allowed to come off site owing to HSE investigation!

[Dean Lofthouse]

Bit off topic- we had a crew working on a National Grid site about 2 months ago where a test drilling operation was being undertaken for a new fence - the 132 kv cable was supposed to be at 130cm they drilled to 120cm BANG - to cut long story short the site is still closed down with a melted drilling rig on top and our tracked chipper has only just been allowed to come off site owing to HSE investigation!

 

Drilling to within 10cm was a tad irresponsible