Using silky... Unskilled labour?

[Andy Collins]

It's lucky I don't have to work up there then

The trouble is the fact that apparently the GLA still have some involvement, and the employer there is complying with their rules. You are complying with your employers wishes, and you expect those you hire to comply with your wishes, which is fair and understandable. No work no pay, and Xmas is around the corner. The GLA makes a catch all regulation, thus designating use of hand tools to "unskilled" level, wrongly IMO but there you go.

Interestingly the formative pruning I have done down here has been on FC land, under FC supervision, and most was done with hand tools,(very nice, relaxing, quiet) with only one or two requiring chainsaw use to fell. An inch or So dia branch needs a single slice with a silky, two at most.

[Spruce Pirate]

Surely a risk assessment alone would prove that the handsaw is a more desirable tool, no need for chainsaw ppe, no need for CS ticketed staff, fatigue issues, fuel economy, and so on. To insist that to comply with the rules in order to meet GLA requirements is farcical to say the least, and makes a joke of risk assessments, and H&S in general.

 

This is an extremely good point, unfortunately, it is completely lost in all the paper-chase.

 

I'm amazed that FC have let hand tools go without GLA license, that would certainly not be the case around here.

 

The GLA has never made much sense to me, too many inconsistencies, and doesn't really fit the forestry sector very well. That said it's one of these things that we are required to comply with, simple as that really. The use of power tools over hand tools is one way of doing this and in my opinion shows what a ridiculous piece of legislation the Ganmasters Act really is.

[David Goss]

It might not be the best thing to do for the trees, but with the right chainsaw (like the little Echo I have) and due care, you can do a good job with pruning with a chainsaw. The trees in question are certainly on the bigger side with frequent branches 1-2 inches. It is quicker with the chainsaw.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't agree with or like the work, there isn't anyone forcing you to do it. Using the silky when you've been asked not to as an act of 'rebellion' is not on, especially when you are subcontracting on someone else's company name and insurance.

 

My 2 cents!

 

Sorry J but your comment about the use of a smaller chainsaw does nothing except make it lighter in the hands, the effect on smaller branches is just the same by ripping them off instead of cutting them. Even the silky is too big for some of the tiny whippy branches and a pair of loppers should even be used.

 

Maybe an act of rebellion was not the correct phrase to use but myself and workmate were a tad pissed off with the bull.

 

Big J is isn't a criticism of yourself, or those who you represent, but more a criticism of how the power of chasing paperwork has over ruled common sense in the workplace.

 

Well said

 

 

if you don't like it you don't do the work. Simples!

 

dont tempt me:sneaky2:

 

do what you are told and don't moan about it.

 

I am not a child and i wasnt moaning about it. I was simply putting it out to the masses to get other opinions on the subject. I understand you may be a bit miffed by this thread but none of it was directed at yourself J so dont go attacking me in such a childish manner. As a professional in this field i WILL refuse to use the chainsaw on the smaller trees and if this means that i have no work on this part of the estate then so be it. Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

[AlexB]

Sorry J but your comment about the use of a smaller chainsaw does nothing except make it lighter in the hands, the effect on smaller branches is just the same by ripping them off instead of cutting them. Even the silky is too big for some of the tiny whippy branches and a pair of loppers should even be used.

 

Maybe an act of rebellion was not the correct phrase to use but myself and workmate were a tad pissed off with the bull.

 

 

 

Well said

 

 

 

 

dont tempt me:sneaky2:

 

 

 

I am not a child and i wasnt moaning about it. I was simply putting it out to the masses to get other opinions on the subject. I understand you may be a bit miffed by this thread but none of it was directed at yourself J so dont go attacking me in such a childish manner. As a professional in this field i WILL refuse to use the chainsaw on the smaller trees and if this means that i have no work on this part of the estate then so be it. Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

 

I'm sorry but with a few exceptions this is inappropriate. As some one who subcontracts this should be delt with in private. The issues of wether or not you should be using a hand tool over a chain saw has been entirely weighted in your favour. That is the only point appropriate for public discussion. The rest should remain between you and the primary contractor.

[john k]

Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

On the plus side you should have plenty of time for Christmas shopping now!

[Andy Collins]

I think a little discretion should be in order here. This is a sensible topic to be discussed in an open manner. If there is a grievance between subby and contractor then that is a matter that should not be aired in public, but in the privacy of an office.

The facts (as i see them now) are that if you are using hand tools for a task, then Gangmaster licensing rules apply, if you are using power tools (chainsaws) to carry out the same task then Gangmaster licensing does not apply. If I have understood this correctly, then the contractor has little room for manoeuvre, and he is right to insist on the method used to carry out the job. As a subby, if you want the work , you are required under the terms of the laws of the licence to use a chainsaw, this is not the fault of the contractor., but a catch all system brought in by beurocrats. Hopefully this will eventually be changed for a more sensible system.

I feel discussing this in a correct and proper manner may help eventually move this forward, hopefully the right people in the right places may even come across such a discussion on this forum? Who knows? We can live in hope.

[woody paul]

Well said Andy.

Let's just setal this with Silky's at dawn:thumbup1:

[codlasher]

Andy Collins. I agree totally with your last line;

"(I feel discussing this in a correct and proper manner may help eventually move this forward, hopefully the right people in the right places may even come across such a discussion on this forum? Who knows? We can live in hope.)"

I have taken a step back from the firing line to do a 'five year plan' for my family. By dong this I can almost see the wood for the trees. I do find it a very rare occurrence now days to find an Agent who is courageous enough to even mention the word 'disagree' with any authority, it is a mine-field out there and keeping ones head down, gathering the grants and doing everything 'by the book', is simply the easy thing to do. I think the days when country gentlemen/land owners got their hands dirty or knew their contractors by name is, sadly, long gone. The result is this layer of indifference that one has to comply with! Those who were the above seem to be either too old to argue any more or six foot under.

Being the eternal optimist I do live in hope!

 

Using the correct method and the best tools to do the finest job should NEVER be questioned, or be dismissed by inappropriate ruling, that is simply WRONG. Those who are advocating anything contrary to this should be questioning their position and supporting, not condemning, those doing the work.

Codlasher

[Andy Collins]

I think that the answer is to join the FCA, get this moved forward, get an exemption for forestry, get at least some of the meddlesome beurocracy out of our jobs, get some common sense back in. Falling out amongst contractors and subbies over the issue is not the way forward, nor will it get it resolved.

[PhilBeech]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I think forestry is still GLA regulated, albeith they are taking a "tread lightly approach", whatever that means. If you read the FCA article it states the the minister would like to see forestry removed, not that it has been. We are still required to have a license (unfortunately). I for one, will jump for joy the day that I am not required to have a license.

 

Totally agree with all the sentiments on hand saws being best for formative pruning, I've nothing to add to that that hasn't been said already. What I would like to add is that GLA regulations are not based on any form of actual skill level. The dividing line is simply hand tools are unskilled and mechanical tools are skilled - I know this does not make sense, but that's the way it is. In this context I think you would need a license. There is one possible get out clause, which states that if you are normally employed in an exempted manner (ie on mechanical tools) you may use hand tools for up to 12 days in any one three month period. So.... if its less than 12 days work and you're normally employed on the saw you should be fine.

 

The simplest way to find out for sure is call the GLA. If I'm wrong on this and you don't need a license please let me know. I'll be delighted to be wrong on this one.

 

Absolutely the right answer, check it out with GLA yourself else you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.