Using silky... Unskilled labour?

[Andy Collins]

Interesting, and thanks Spruce Pirate and of course Big J for clarification. As a person who has made tree work my career, I would struggle to consider using a tool that I feel would not be the best for the job in each case. If I need a chainsaw for a task, then I will use it, and likewise for a handsaw. I agree that "back in the day" handsaws were a pig, I hated them with a passion, ie the Sandvik bowsaw. But modern Silky type saws are very efficient, precise near surgical in the right hands, and I would certainly challenge any man with a chainsaw to be as productive as someone experienced with a Silky saw, in this circumstance. Surely a risk assessment alone would prove that the handsaw is a more desirable tool, no need for chainsaw ppe, no need for CS ticketed staff, fatigue issues, fuel economy, and so on. To insist that to comply with the rules in order to meet GLA requirements is farcical to say the least, and makes a joke of risk assessments, and H&S in general.

Big J is isn't a criticism of yourself, or those who you represent, but more a criticism of how the power of chasing paperwork has over ruled common sense in the workplace.

[Big J]

I don't disagree with you at all Andy. I agree that the silky is the better tool. However, the work is conditional on adhering to the wishes of the customer (and the daft laws which they must follow) . You can offer your advice freely, however you must be willing to accept that it may not be taken. You then proceed according to the wishes of the customer - if you don't like it you don't do the work. Simples!

[Andy Collins]

It's lucky I don't have to work up there then

The trouble is the fact that apparently the GLA still have some involvement, and the employer there is complying with their rules. You are complying with your employers wishes, and you expect those you hire to comply with your wishes, which is fair and understandable. No work no pay, and Xmas is around the corner. The GLA makes a catch all regulation, thus designating use of hand tools to "unskilled" level, wrongly IMO but there you go.

Interestingly the formative pruning I have done down here has been on FC land, under FC supervision, and most was done with hand tools,(very nice, relaxing, quiet) with only one or two requiring chainsaw use to fell. An inch or So dia branch needs a single slice with a silky, two at most.

[Big J]

I suppose it's context and locality that does it. The estate is managed by a very large forestry company, who do everything by the book. Additionally, earlier this year a reasonably large local estate were fined quite substantially for violation of the gangmasters legislation. It's not worth the headache at the end of the day - do what you are told and don't moan about it.

[Spruce Pirate]

Surely a risk assessment alone would prove that the handsaw is a more desirable tool, no need for chainsaw ppe, no need for CS ticketed staff, fatigue issues, fuel economy, and so on. To insist that to comply with the rules in order to meet GLA requirements is farcical to say the least, and makes a joke of risk assessments, and H&S in general.

 

This is an extremely good point, unfortunately, it is completely lost in all the paper-chase.

 

I'm amazed that FC have let hand tools go without GLA license, that would certainly not be the case around here.

 

The GLA has never made much sense to me, too many inconsistencies, and doesn't really fit the forestry sector very well. That said it's one of these things that we are required to comply with, simple as that really. The use of power tools over hand tools is one way of doing this and in my opinion shows what a ridiculous piece of legislation the Ganmasters Act really is.

[David Goss]

It might not be the best thing to do for the trees, but with the right chainsaw (like the little Echo I have) and due care, you can do a good job with pruning with a chainsaw. The trees in question are certainly on the bigger side with frequent branches 1-2 inches. It is quicker with the chainsaw.

 

At the end of the day, if you don't agree with or like the work, there isn't anyone forcing you to do it. Using the silky when you've been asked not to as an act of 'rebellion' is not on, especially when you are subcontracting on someone else's company name and insurance.

 

My 2 cents!

 

Sorry J but your comment about the use of a smaller chainsaw does nothing except make it lighter in the hands, the effect on smaller branches is just the same by ripping them off instead of cutting them. Even the silky is too big for some of the tiny whippy branches and a pair of loppers should even be used.

 

Maybe an act of rebellion was not the correct phrase to use but myself and workmate were a tad pissed off with the bull.

 

Big J is isn't a criticism of yourself, or those who you represent, but more a criticism of how the power of chasing paperwork has over ruled common sense in the workplace.

 

Well said

 

 

if you don't like it you don't do the work. Simples!

 

dont tempt me:sneaky2:

 

do what you are told and don't moan about it.

 

I am not a child and i wasnt moaning about it. I was simply putting it out to the masses to get other opinions on the subject. I understand you may be a bit miffed by this thread but none of it was directed at yourself J so dont go attacking me in such a childish manner. As a professional in this field i WILL refuse to use the chainsaw on the smaller trees and if this means that i have no work on this part of the estate then so be it. Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

[AlexB]

Sorry J but your comment about the use of a smaller chainsaw does nothing except make it lighter in the hands, the effect on smaller branches is just the same by ripping them off instead of cutting them. Even the silky is too big for some of the tiny whippy branches and a pair of loppers should even be used.

 

Maybe an act of rebellion was not the correct phrase to use but myself and workmate were a tad pissed off with the bull.

 

 

 

Well said

 

 

 

 

dont tempt me:sneaky2:

 

 

 

I am not a child and i wasnt moaning about it. I was simply putting it out to the masses to get other opinions on the subject. I understand you may be a bit miffed by this thread but none of it was directed at yourself J so dont go attacking me in such a childish manner. As a professional in this field i WILL refuse to use the chainsaw on the smaller trees and if this means that i have no work on this part of the estate then so be it. Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

 

I'm sorry but with a few exceptions this is inappropriate. As some one who subcontracts this should be delt with in private. The issues of wether or not you should be using a hand tool over a chain saw has been entirely weighted in your favour. That is the only point appropriate for public discussion. The rest should remain between you and the primary contractor.

[john k]

Go get a gypsy that will do whatever bad work you ask of them for little money, as you said there is nobody forcing me to do it

On the plus side you should have plenty of time for Christmas shopping now!

[Andy Collins]

I think a little discretion should be in order here. This is a sensible topic to be discussed in an open manner. If there is a grievance between subby and contractor then that is a matter that should not be aired in public, but in the privacy of an office.

The facts (as i see them now) are that if you are using hand tools for a task, then Gangmaster licensing rules apply, if you are using power tools (chainsaws) to carry out the same task then Gangmaster licensing does not apply. If I have understood this correctly, then the contractor has little room for manoeuvre, and he is right to insist on the method used to carry out the job. As a subby, if you want the work , you are required under the terms of the laws of the licence to use a chainsaw, this is not the fault of the contractor., but a catch all system brought in by beurocrats. Hopefully this will eventually be changed for a more sensible system.

I feel discussing this in a correct and proper manner may help eventually move this forward, hopefully the right people in the right places may even come across such a discussion on this forum? Who knows? We can live in hope.

[woody paul]

Well said Andy.

Let's just setal this with Silky's at dawn:thumbup1: