Chainsaw refresher course, who should foot the bill?

[Mark Cattell]

To compare NPTC units with First aid training is nonsense, you are likely to have not used your FA training from one year to the next, so refreshing is vital, however if your cutting/climbing day in day out, your hardly going to forget it.

 

Totally agree.

 

CPD records and employment history should have a strong bearing on need for refresher 1, 2 or 3 days... if you have been a hair dresser for the last 5 years since passing your assessment then 3 days is probably ok. but as for regular user's a 1/2 day on site assessment once very 5 years seems more than acceptable.

[Arctostaphylos uva-ursi]

I recently did refresher courses for all my tickets including Chainsaw Maintenance and Use of a Chipper. I also did a couple I did not have (MEWP and 40/41). Whilst I received certification for the new tickets I was not given anything in writing to say that I had completed refreshers for all the other units, just told by the assessor that he would keep it on record. Is this correct? Have others received verification in writing?

As far as aerial rescue is concerned, I did a refresher for this too which included a pole rescue (which I had not done the last couple of times). I think all climbers would benefit from practising this on a regular basis and recording this (a bit like your LOLER checks) then perhaps being reassessed every 6 years.

[easy-lift guy]

Good subject matter. Just wondering if there would be any reasons why these training requirements could not take place at various shows around the country or dealerships?

Of course that would take a bit of planning, however it should also reduce the cost overall since some companies seem to bring most if not their entire crew for shows. The APF Show comes to mind. As previously mentioned by others if your SE your expenses are your own. If one works for someone else the owner of the company pays all, including time on the books. The amount of time and cost seem very expensive to accomplish this requirement. Streamlining is in order for sure. Having different locations

at different times of the year for this training makes the most sence to me.

easy-lift guy

Edited November 2, 2012 by easy-lift guy
Spelling

[Mark Cattell]

Pole rescue is now mandatory for aerial rescue which was not the case when i was assessed so this element would be use full element of a refresher course.

 

Does any one know if the refresher is a Lantra accredited scheme?

 

If its not any qualified trainer can issue a refresher Certificate and with no fixed hourly requirement this could be 1 or even 1/2 a day.

 

Similar to driving training.

 

I would be cheaper to be reassessed as there is no requirement for formal training to be NPTC assessed!!!

 

Just hope your pass......

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Isit law that says you have to do re-fresher training every 5 years?

What a load of Sh* - complete and utter nonsense if you are handling a saw on a regular basis. Just a money spinner for the training companies/instructors and NPTC

 

As above S/e pay for yourself, unfortunately

 

Employed, employer pays course and wages.

 

Gents, APOLOGIES here if this has been addressed further down the thread and in advance for what is going to be a long(ish) post.

 

The 'law' here is a combination of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 ('HASWA 74'), which places a general 'duty' (responsibility) on the employer to provide 'adequate training' to employees for the particular tasks they require them to undertake, i.e. using chainsaws.

 

Thereafter, the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regs 1998 (PUWER 98) 'Approved Code of Practice' (ACOP) requires that 'chainsaw users must also, i.e. in addition to 'adequate training', hold a 'certificate of competence', traditionally an NPTC (now becoming known as 'a licence to practice', whihc I thik is a good thing.)

 

Further the PUWER ACOP, which has a 'semi-legal' status, says that were tasks change and / or where there are advances in technologies and techniques, or words to that effect, then 'refresher/update training' should be considered (my recollection here is that it doesn't say you must, but responsible employers will).

 

The AFGA 805 Sects. 35-38 (see below) says 'refresher training', following guidance in HSE INDG317 (also below) should be considered every 5 years as a minimum.

 

In practice, and this is a view recognised (not endorsed) by the HSE, through the ARB Approved Contractor scheme, we like to see refresher training undertaken in combination with skills advancement, i.e. CS30/31 to CS32 to CS33/34 etc. or CS39 to CS41, which is both more cost effective and, importantly, beneficial to both the operator and employer. I recently assessed a contractor who had done 2x ‘CS30’ refresher courses in the last 10 years...”why?”

 

In terms of financing it, simplistically employees = employer and self-employed = themselves. In practice I would hope a more flexible approach can be adopted, particularly in the current climate and remember the employer costs are:

1. Course costs = £750?

2. Wages = x3 days (say £250 inc. overheads)

3. No productivity = x3 days (say £450)

TOTAL= £1,450.00 ... a lot of money.

 

Hence, me personally, I would be prepared, IF it was ‘advancement training’ (CS30/31 upto CS32) to take at least some of the 3 days as annual leave to ease the burden on the employer and to benefit me and my future. These days it’s often about compromise.

 

SORRY such a loooooooooong post!

 

Take care out there guys!

Paul

indg317.pdf

afag805.pdf

[Mark Cattell]

Gents, APOLOGIES here if this has been addressed further down the thread and in advance for what is going to be a long(ish) post.

 

The 'law' here is a combination of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 ('HASWA 74'), which places a general 'duty' (responsibility) on the employer to provide 'adequate training' to employees for the particular tasks they require them to undertake, i.e. using chainsaws.

 

Thereafter, the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regs 1998 (PUWER 98) 'Approved Code of Practice' (ACOP) requires that 'chainsaw users must also, i.e. in addition to 'adequate training', hold a 'certificate of competence', traditionally an NPTC (now becoming known as 'a licence to practice', whihc I thik is a good thing.)

 

Further the PUWER ACOP, which has a 'semi-legal' status, says that were tasks change and / or where there are advances in technologies and techniques, or words to that effect, then 'refresher/update training' should be considered (my recollection here is that it doesn't say you must, but responsible employers will).

 

The AFGA 805 Sects. 35-38 (see below) says 'refresher training', following guidance in HSE INDG317 (also below) should be considered every 5 years as a minimum.

 

In practice, and this is a view recognised (not endorsed) by the HSE, through the ARB Approved Contractor scheme, we like to see refresher training undertaken in combination with skills advancement, i.e. CS30/31 to CS32 to CS33/34 etc. or CS39 to CS41, which is both more cost effective and, importantly, beneficial to both the operator and employer. I recently assessed a contractor who had done 2x ‘CS30’ refresher courses in the last 10 years...”why?”

 

In terms of financing it, simplistically employees = employer and self-employed = themselves. In practice I would hope a more flexible approach can be adopted, particularly in the current climate and remember the employer costs are:

1. Course costs = £750?

2. Wages = x3 days (say £250 inc. overheads)

3. No productivity = x3 days (say £450)

TOTAL= £1,450.00 ... a lot of money.

 

Hence, me personally, I would be prepared, IF it was ‘advancement training’ (CS30/31 upto CS32) to take at least some of the 3 days as annual leave to ease the burden on the employer and to benefit me and my future. These days it’s often about compromise.

 

SORRY such a loooooooooong post!

 

Take care out there guys!

Paul

 

Paul Can you confirm that there is or is not a set level of input for refresher training and who it is endorsed by?

 

Ie Lantra. City and Gulids ect.

 

Also is CPD accepatable as a record of refresher training. ie a advanced climbing workshop. a pole rescue workshop. ect...

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Paul Can you confirm that there is or is not a set level of input for refresher training and who it is endorsed by?

 

Ie Lantra. City and Gulids ect.

 

Also is CPD accepatable as a record of refresher training. ie a advanced climbing workshop. a pole rescue workshop. ect...

 

Hi Mark,

 

Hmmm, an interesting question you pose.

 

Simplistically, 'the standard' for refresher training would normally be set by a recognised standards / training / assessing body, i.e. Lantra / City & Guilds (NPTC) / AA etc., as appropriate, and indeed refresher training can be delivered 'in-house'. The trouble is, if the 'proverbial hits the fan', proving it took place, when, what was covered, who dleivered it, why they wre competent, who received it, did they understand it etc. etc. (in other words this route can be fraught with difficulties and hence the LANTRA / NPTC etc. route is preferable.)

 

With reagrds to CPD, this would, I think, be recognised as contributing towards keeping an operative current but wouldn't necessraily be veiwed as a suitable alterantive to actual refreshre training.

 

The previous references to 'First Aid' training are interesting, and useful, but not, I would suggest, directly relevant. What I mean is, it is useful to do FA refreshre training every 18 months I would suggest, i.e. 'mid-term' of your re-certification period, because (hopefully) you don;t use thos skills daily. However you do use the chainsaw daily and hence refreshing in that, 'per se', may not be really benefically, BUT doing so with a different application, i.e. larger trees or wind-blow, would.

 

Hope this helps and 'alopogies' for my poor spelling and grammar as this reply is rather rushed.

 

Cheers..

Paul

 

PS IN direct answer to your question, it is the HSE or Judge who will decide at the end of the day whether your CPD was adequate as refresher training but I have some concerns...but I do encourage CPD, too!

[Mark Cattell]

Paul,

 

Thanks for that....

 

The usual minefield that the Arb industry seems to generate.

 

Think I will stick to the common sense principle as you say if its a skill rarely used then get regular refresher training or remove from your skill set.

 

If there are changes in best practice or additional mandatory elements in new assessments IE pole rescue then get trained and documented,, nationally recognised training provider... Or a qualified in house trainer with up to date skills set.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Paul,

 

Thanks for that....

 

The usual minefield that the Arb industry seems to generate.

 

Think I will stick to the common sense principle as you say if its a skill rarely used then get regular refresher training or remove from your skill set.

 

If there are changes in best practice or additional mandatory elements in new assessments IE pole rescue then get trained and documented,, nationally recognised training provider... Or a qualified in house trainer with up to date skills set.

 

 

Mark, very nicely 'summed up'...wish I had that skill, as I'm sure do many others:biggrin:

 

Cheers..

Paul

[Land Skills Training]

Guys I completely agree with Paul. please read AFAG 805 this is good guidance put together by people massively experienced in our industry for the HSE. Also the HSE INDG 317 Chainsaws at work.

 

The AA Guide to Good Climbing Practice says Aerial Rescue rescue should be practised regularly (once every 3 months is suggested)

 

In house refresher training is perfectly acceptable if the person giving it is competent. But you must keep a record of the subjects covered. There is no set time for refresher courses it depends on your experience in a lot of cases it is possible to be observed by an accredited instuctor/assessor very quickly and as long as he is happy that you are carrying out the operation to the latest industry best practice he can produce a certificate of attendance to say he has observed you.

Most employers prefer to opt for nationaly recognised training organisation (Lantra Awards, NPTC, AA etc) as these are taught by registered specialist instructors and the content of the course is more than sufficient to satisfy - this is what you pay for? Wise words from Rich Rule if you progress from Climbing and Rescue to Arboricultural Pruning or Dismantling it will count as refresher training. Also as Mark Cattell says keep records of CPD (shows visited, books read etc) these are all useful in showing you are keeping your skills up to date. Hope this helps

 

Cheers Mark Collis

 

 

P.S Dont shoot the messenger.

 

 

 

Two people with different views can't both be right, but they can both be wrong:grinning-smiley-003